ground knife defence

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Samurai Jay, Mar 7, 2011.

  1. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    This topic pops up all the time, and I've said previously what I have to say.

    But... to the idea that MMA gets criticised for not having knife defence.....

    MMA is a 'sport'. Yes, the skills and training methodologies carry over into 'real world' applications, but at it's core (these days) it is about fighting within a ruleset that does not include 'weapons'. I'm not knocking MMA, I practice, I have fought, I watch, I like.

    To criticise MMA for not having knife defence material makes as much sense as criticising lawn bowls for not having takedown defence.
     
  2. RJDefaye

    RJDefaye Valued Member

    Maybe I should give a little advice instead of criticising like i did before.

    FIRST: Knife attacks (knife, screw driver, shiv etc):
    Right, if the person wants to kill you with the weapon you're dead, there's no defending. If they know what they're doing they're going to come up behind you or from wherever and they're going to stab you over and over and over until you fall over and they're sure you're dead. That's the plain simple truth. Now if they wave it around in front of you for any reason it means you have a chance to defend because they're not a 100% commited to killing you even if they intend to hurt you with the knife because like i said if they wanted you dead you would be dead already.

    SECOND:
    Unless you're in a completely bare and locked room and butt-naked you're always going to have an improvised weapon around, or at least something to defend with. Pick up a handful of dirt and throw it in their eyes. I've done this before and it was weird as hell. He pulled the knife so i bent down and picked up a handful of gravel and dirt and held it like i was gonna throw it at him. It bought me time to back away and run off.
    Or, you can take your shirt off and wrap it around your arm to defend against light slashes so you can get in and attack.
    Krav Maga and Haganah are very good for improvised weapons. If it's still around have a look at fight2survive.com, it's got some good videos.
    The most important thing to remember is that someone who's not commited to killing you with the knife is expecting you to back away or beg if you're unarmed- not fight back. More often than not if you're agressive it will throw them off and if you find something that even remotely resembles a weapon it will make them think twice.

    Hope i helped.

    RJ
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  3. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Most knife defence is crap and will get you murdered.

    A knife is dangerous in anyones hands regardless of if they are trained to use one or not.

    There are some things you can do to raise the possibility of escape but there are no sure things.

    I quite like the look of the STAB programme...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ZO17yWi7I"]YouTube - Karl Tanswell - S.T.A.B. Program (Preview)[/ame]

    ... but it's not a magic bullet.

    EDIT - oops didn't read herbo's post!!
     
  4. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    I would have to agree with your position!

    I was looking the web and found this video of some people working with resistance while on the ground and against a knife.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDI9mvF-F3o"]YouTube - Knife Attack Drills on the Ground[/ame]

    I think you have really bad karma if you find yourself on the ground and the other person has a knife or pulls one. However, I do not believe in giving up or that you cannot prevail in that confrontation. Will you get seriously hurt? More than likely and you may even die but.... you still have a chance! (albeit smaller than if you are on your feet with your handgun pulled out) ;)
     
  5. Linds

    Linds Valued Member

    People don't come to the mma forum to talk about knives because there are no knives in mma. If mma people cared about knives or being criticised about not learning knife fighting they'd go to a knife art to learn.

    This thread is retarded
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Not sure I concur with this

    In theory it is absolutely about distance, timing etc, etc - but the second a blade comes into it then you have a variable that can render your otherwise safe techniques suddenly dangerous.

    Why do you think that LEO's will go "hands on" with a puncher but shoot a knife wielder? Or to use another example, would you use the same tactics against multiple opponents that you would mano e mano?

    "One size fits all" combat strategies seldom work
     
  7. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    During a private lesson with GM Danny Guba (FMA) last month we discussed knife defence. His opinion was that if you have the knife against your neck as shown in the fist clip, the best thing you can do is be compliant. If the guy wants your money, give him your money. However if the knife is being waved in front of your face maybe, just maybe you can do your technique.

    In FMA there are no knife masters, stick masters yes, but no knife masters. Why, because even an idiot with a knife can leave you dead. Also if your teacher gives you the term master, someone somewhere will issue a challenge, so by being given the term knife master you have effectivly been given a signed death warrant.
     
  8. Samurai Jay

    Samurai Jay master of all weapons

  9. Samurai Jay

    Samurai Jay master of all weapons

    The first post was about ground fighting knife defence.

    As you can see i am just asking if anyone trains knife defence.
     
  10. Linds

    Linds Valued Member

    Or run away.
     
  11. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    Running is always a great option unless you have a wife or kid to defend! ;)
     
  12. RJDefaye

    RJDefaye Valued Member

    Depends on the importance you place on the woman and child. My wife's tough, she can handle herself.

    Remember, when you're in a group and being chased by a bear, you don't have to be faster that the bear, just faster than someone else.

    RJ
     
  13. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Haha.It must be the Filipino sense of humour, but GM Danny Guba says place your wife between the knife man and yourself, you can always get a new wife.

    Always gets a laugh in class.
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Danny is awesom - but you never know if he is joking or not.....
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Because they have to follow a force continuum that specifies what actions are allowed (as do we all). They also have a different agenda to a civilian defending themselves. They aren't defending themselves per se.
    However if they have to go hands on with someone with a knife they aren't all of a sudden going to go into "knife defence mode". They'll go into "fight mode".
    What happens if "puncher" suddenly produces a knife?
    What if puncher actually has a small punch dagger protruding from his fist that you didn't see?
    You can't afford to go into a different mode. The mode you start with should cater for that too.
    In essence you will be attempting to end the conforntation quickly and violently and escape to safety.
    That doesn't change against a puncher, knifer, gunman, old granny with a handbag.

    Absolutely.
    Hit a man until he can no longer continue to be a danger.
    Counter his efforts to stop me and continue to hit him.
    Try not to fall on the floor.
    Escape.
    If he has mates rinse and repeat until they stop attacking me, I can't continue or I can escape safely.

    In civilian SD you shouldn't be voluntarily going for a clinch or seeking the ground whether it be one bloke or many.
     
  16. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    The knife is potentially a deadly weapon to try to defend against with empty hands when you're standing. If you're grappling on the ground with someone, and they pull a knife with the intention and resolve to use it on you, then it's almost certainly 'good night and God bless'. Even Cops with a gun in their holster can find it hard if they get too close: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo"]YouTube - Too close - dont underestimate the knife[/ame]

    If you like training with knives, however, either out of interest or because you would like to gain a few skills that might just save your **** one day, we have this guy over to do a knife day in Cambridge UK this coming April (he also has several videos on YouTube if you want to look at him in action):
     

    Attached Files:

  17. RJDefaye

    RJDefaye Valued Member

    I suppose a point to be made, and apologies if it's already been said and i missed it, is that when someone pulls a knife on you it is one of the scariest things you will have to go through. You get scared and you tend to act like a scared animal that has been backed into a corner. Your adrenaline kicks in and you go absolutely berserk. Either that you you have the opposite effect. There's no calm calculated response unless you're some kind of super human or something like that. Same goes for any weapon. Suddenly you start making rationalisations and gambling that getting slashes would be worth it if it gets you out of there. Some more advice from me would be to get some training partners and some rubber knives or permanent markers and pad up. Then have some full contact sparring with one person armed. The problem with having a weapon is that you tend to concentrate on just using the weapon whereas the unarmed person is thinking about everything they have. Still, chances of surviving are slim. Don't watch other people do fancy knife defence, see how your body reacts and deal with it your own way.
     
  18. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I really disagree.

    If we are talking about the physical side of this where a fight is commencing or is in some other way unavoidable (you are cornered and need to either fight or go through your attacker to escape) then you'd be a fool to engage with a knife in the same way you would an unarmed assailent.
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    So what do you do against the guy you know is armed?
    What do you do against the guy who doesn't appear to be armed?
     
  20. RJDefaye

    RJDefaye Valued Member

    Sorry, i have to make another post cuz i'm on my phone at work. Ha ha. Just as an addition to the last post all of this stud comes from experience. I've seen a lot of stuff happen involving weapons and some of it is in my book, but long story short is that weapon attacks and use of weapons is not pleasant and totally brutal.
     

Share This Page