Peace to All, I see that this thread now had too many discussions about so many topics, I just would like to address on a few of that topics, mainly about Groundfighting techniques and Silat in Wars and Battles. For the the first topic, as far as my Silat Style goes, I can summarize as 90% is about the techniques that was passed from generation to generations long time ago, that is the original buahs from earliest grandmaster, to this date still the same as when it was first originated. The other 10% is how to use the techniques and adapt it to possible situations and modern fighting scenarios. We can be attacked in so many way, anytime of the day, and mostly without a warning. We must always be on alert; while walking, sitting, lying on the mat, or even sleeping (by saying prayers :Angel: ). Also there are thing that our ancestors had never encountered when the silat was created; high kicks (long time ago Malay people rarely, and I mean rarely, kicked obove the waist line), guns, nightsticks, nunchakus and many others. So for my opinion, we must use our time to train, maybe just for a short period of time, on how to face this unsuspected situation. We never know when is our unlucky day, and how it's going to be, so let us just, even if not prepared, have knowledge to make the right moves. About Silat in Wars and Battles, I never seen one live , nor their videos , nor still images too . But here we do have historic records of soldiers using silat to defend the state from foreign attackers. The foreign attackers didn't use guns and same as the defending army, they all used native martial arts and weapons in the battle. That's all I have to say here, hope it helps in one way or another.
The reason I find this interesting is because it's a situation I once found myself in. I was set upon by two guys purely because of my appearance and totally out of the blue, late at night. One of the guys had suckerpunched me in the back of my head from behind, I dropped & found myself on the ground with the other stood over me-I was still seeing stars from the punch & guy number one had allready kicked me in the ribs & stamped on my face. Yes, I'd had a few pints with some friends earlier too I had around a decade of training in a couple of arts at the time and none of them seemed to have taken the scenario into account. Basically, instinct kicked in...literally. I did much the same as you said. Kicked & ran. I was later rushed into hospital with a fractured skull, life threatening swelling of the brain and some broken ribs, and a bootprint bruise on my face........ If I'd have just covered up & not acted in the way I did, I doubt I'd be here to recount the tale. I've since always had a 'shoot first' attitude when attacked..... Anyway, point being, we practice kicking & sweeping from ground positions. So if God forbid, I ever end up in that position again I'd at least have a few more options.
that is a tough situation. Is there really a "style" that can handle sucker punches to the head? Well at least you surivived it.
Peace to All, For the the first topic, as far as my Silat Style goes, I can summarize as 90% is about the techniques that was passed from generation to generations long time ago, that is the original buahs from earliest grandmaster, to this date still the same as when it was first originated. Salam Taker, I agree with you whole heartly. Few months ago, I asked everyone, what is their objective to learn silat. One must define their objective before planning and doing the tasks to achieve the objective. I have a big discussion with one of the very religous people who mixmatched their silat with religion. I agree to disagree with that, respectfully. My opinon is this: If your objective to learn Martial Arts for the love of the arts, then learn everything, culturally, martial (buah, kembangan, etc, etc), adat and hormat. If your objective to learn martial arts as a self-defense or combatant. Not only you have to learn Martial Arts, you also have to analyze what you are doing/practice. Is my movements/applications are realistic in a current real situations? And then environment and weapons must always to be consider as part of self-defense it self. By analyzing the above, we should be keep an open mind to see or hear criticism of our movements/applications. You can always show loyalty to your teacher by improving your basic application and at the same time become practical in a real current situations. Some students have different mind sets, though. By telling themselves, this is what I had learn from my teacher, I would not changes a bit. Please do not missunderstood me. I don't institute a changes in a techniques. That's not the case. What I meant is, using the basic techniques for different entries. Learn to use the basic movements/applications in "what ifs" situations. Remember, many years ago, even how people walking are different than now. The ground are differents, the shoes we wore are different and the whole evironment are differents. Long time ago, people walking around carrying sword and knife or other martial arts tools, but today, people walking around with a cell phones but yet many people carry gun (hiden or unhidden), knifes, etc. They also fight differntly. Therefore, it is our duty to keep up with the antee. To assume that by learning silat, we can cover the whole situation without changing the mindset of how to apply those basic techniques is a foolish at best. At one of the seminar, a silat player asked me: "Why I did not doing the dancing around the opponent as a strategy to confuse him." My reply was: It will not work in a current situation! It worked many years ago, because both party will do the same, dancing around to look for opening, the space is mostly wideopen or larger space and most of the time is a gentleman fights or one to one fight. Currently, most of the fight is in nightclub and bar, space and environment are a very important knowledge in winning a fight. Last but not least, handguns is plenty and something to be reckon with. In Philadelphia alone, 800 homocide caused by handgun, this is only September. So, to all of you, silat is only a tools. Use the tools wisely, and it is not guarranty. And that's the truth!!! so help me God! Tristan
Other than permanently wearing a crash helmet You can be an uber deadly expert in 15 MAs and then someone comes along and puches you from behind when you least expect it Of course there'll be someone out there who's developed some mystical ESP to prevent this happening
Tristan, I agree on this, but isn't it much of the times more a question of how far a person is in his development/training and is it reasonable for that person to expect that he is really able to judge what he has learned thusfar. My old teacher always encouraged us to keep looking for the deeper and alternative applications of a certain technique or position. I've learned that finding out all possibilities takes effort, experience and getting wiser (almost by age) You regularly see people pass by who are mixing techniques from other martial arts while the basic fundamentals are still crappy, he/she might be able to show an extensive curriculum but does it realy work too? I don't judge people who mix different martial arts but I only hope that they have enough insights and the necessary fundament to really create or incorporate it in a system. If one is of full knowledge of a system it becomes a different matter. Adjusting your fighting style to every day reality is however a neccesity in my opinion but the earlier posts already stated my opinion on this. Hormat, Pekir
gajah,happy you survived that one mate well done.drinking and fighting(i know you were jumped) defo dont mix for most people,sad but if im going to drink i make sure im with friends in a nice enviroment,usually in one of our abodes,and never walk home alone when ****ed!. we live and learn dont we,as for training,practice everything with a serious fun attitude,by that i mean have fun first but be serious about it! creativity is the key because unless you know the enviroment you are going to fight in(ie a ring/cage etc) and you know the opponent etc then anything could happen at any time,yeah and as happened to you **** happens(bad things happen to good people) this is why i also include in my training a bit of grind work,you know push upps till you cant do any more,get the gloves on and do a few rounds for the wind and the will,and we always have to rememember the old romany saying," sometimes you get the bear,and sometimes the bear gets you!" respect guys
Salam Pekir, In a way we are agree on all.. I have seen many silat students hunger for new things and forget or less practice the old basic. It does not work that way. Learning silat is like buildidng a house. You need to have a good and strong foundation and/or if you want to add something on top of the house. Our silat or most traditional silat, alway revisited the basic. Each new techniques compliment the basic. Its like a big to small circle. It started with a big circle, back to the basic and then to a little smaller circle, etc. etc. The different between the basic and the advance technique is the advance technique derrived from basic techniques that have been regularly practice for million times Is that simple, right. Now let analyzed Pak Lek philoshopy of ten years learning silat is a beginer!! Not a pendekar and guru. Lets do the math Say you do the few basic juru and langkah. repeated 10 times, it will take approx. 30 minutes/day. 7x10 = 70 times or 210 minutes/wk. 70x52= 3640 times or 1040 minutes or 182 hours per years. To practiced the same basic juru and langkah for one million times? You needed alot of years to accomplish it. That's why, silat is a life time practice, its not just MA but a way of life. But Pak Lek and I can be wrong too, we are all human after all. Peace and Be Well, Tristan
Selamat, We all learned a little more about ground fighting yesterday. Guru Edward Lebe and his student Guru Erik Kruk were here to put on a workshop. We all had a great time. Pictures on the website. http://www.santacruzsilat.com Selamat
can you elaborate on what you learned about fighting on the ground on the recent seminar you attended tuankaki?
Not too much, because I don't think I'm too qualified to know what I'm seeing with Harimau. But Guru Rennie's 16 years with Pak Herman Suwanda gives him some perspective that helps me with that. In a sense it all looks the same to me, but I guess it's not . One thing, I guess in my head I had always thought of Harimau as being a style for the region and its topography as depicted in Draeger's book, or for indoors, etc. But Guru Eric told me he has trained their - what I'll call entry langkas - on rock and concrete, etc. Apparently Guru Lebe - who now resides in Jakarta - had been long known to apply his skills in an urban setting and I have no reason to doubt that. So anyhow Guru Rennie showed me where they did some things that were unique in relation to what he remembers in his prior training. Their family system is called Baringin Sakti, and Guru Eric Kruk is their director in the US. Eric's a great guy too, who had also trained in Mande Muda for a time. http://www.baringinsakti-silat.com/ Check them out, and tell them I sent you!
My pleasure! Probably not too informative though. I'll add that there was no investigation into Harimau vs. grappling, or Harimau vs. Harimau, etc. There was only time to look at the first level of what they did against an upright opponent.
Hi Wali, Not that I'm aware, but I guess you could do a search on YouTube. They do have a DVD available through Guru Erik, which is $40.00. I got one (and a T-Shirt) while I was there. It's got a lot of the basics of what they do in terms of some strikes and entries, and the training kangkas. Their warmups as shown both at the seminar and on the DVD would make a hell of a "jazzercize" class.
Yeah, my sciatica loves that stuff! Between Guru Plinck's "sikap tanah " and the cardio stuff these guys are doing, it would make for a great 1 hour excercise DVD. Plus you could kick ass if you stuck with it long enough. I wish I were in my 20's again.... But Guru Lebe is in his 60's and gets along just fine down there. I expect the same will hold true for Guru Plinck when he greets his 60's. Models in training discipline.
Proper silat is fought very low to the ground anyway, In my view if you are not low then you are not practing traditional silat. If look at the clips of silat from indonesia or you have been blessed to be taught or have viewed a real silat master they are low. if they come up to strike ,they go back down. So a lot of the tradiitional techniques look like ground techniques when they are just regular fighting for silat.Ground techiques are also the best for conditioning if you want strong legs and wind go low, stay low. That type of training sets silat practioners apart from most martial arts is that to do silat properly you have to be in super shape. Of course that means more pain and suffering, but that is what is required to be a real silat preactioner, we in the west do not to go low but it is exactly what is needed.
About proper silat and low to the ground...hmm that's new to me...it all depends on the style of silat you are practicing...perhaps harimau. Offcourse it comes in handy but I've always learned that you never go to the ground unless you are already on the ground or when you are brought down to the ground....I would not prefer fighting on the ground whilst being in a bar with all the pieces of glass laying around.. About being in super shape...I disagree, the funny thing is that you DON'T need to be in super shape to be able to fight using silat. It's more about efficiency of movement and using the proper angles. At least that's how i've been taught and I would like to call it 'proper silat'. But I could be wrong
Fighting low to the ground requires much more energy as it stresses the body. Its fine when you’re young and strong but I can’t imagine an old silat practitioner purposely fighting low to the ground, especially against someone much younger and stronger. Why would anyone chose to fight low on the ground when it involves using more energy, reduces speed and limits mobility? It’s good for conditioning but I’m not convinced it’s the best way to fight. If there are two men of very different physical size, one being very tall and heavy and the other being short and light would it be wise for the smaller guy to take the fight to the ground. Is it wise for a smaller lighter guy to wrestle with a bigger stronger guy?
