Now, I got a chance to reply. Groundfighting is not a great option, if: -against multiple attackers. -against multiple attackers with weapons. -against one attacker with a weapon. Those are just obvious even for strikers. Should you find your opponent standing over you or mounted on you trying to pound your face in, as in these videos: http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=633 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=593 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=576 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=541 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=515 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=516 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=512 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=502 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=479 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=469 Groundfighting would help you. Thus, you could apply grond and pound defense if you knew it. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb3BHDK0MSQ"]YouTube[/ame]
Brilliant, you understand fights don't start on the ground and that stand up skills are needed. Though, for the hell of it, lets try this again. Read post #22. If the attacker decides to keep you on the ground, even if they are not skilled, ground skills are still needed.
Every strategy will have its appropriate place ... In a ring, you know that there's not going to be other people joining in ... so grappling has its place. So I guess the reasons for and against BJJ style grappling depends on the environment. Outside a ring, at night in a carpark its a different matter, from my experience you always have to keep an eye out for what the other people are going to do. For example I (and my back-up .. just the 2 of us) were dealing with a near riot a couple of weeks ago, approx 250 ppl ... BJJ is useless for me then, if I fall I want to get up as quickly as possible so I can fall back and re-group!!! :bang: I am not a grappler, I am too small to be effective against most 6 foot 6 as a grappler ... and fighting on my back on the ground in a melee is useless IMO, but knowing how to escape from the ground is useful. Having an appreciation of the skills for moving on the ground (with the aim to get up again as quickly as possible) is a benefit. Salam. P.S. It looks like that we all kind of agree here. Everything will depend on the situation, whether it's competition, pub brawl, one on one, few vs. many, weapons involved etc. etc. ad infinitum ....
Not completely true, check out this Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter v.s NFL guy: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dVqMIt8jSY"]YouTube[/ame] Brazilian Jiu Jitsu works just fine against those that out weight you and have height advantage. Thats what I'm saying, I'm not saying keep the fight on the ground. Though, if it ends up on the ground, you will need it.
if a fight ends up on the ground in a british bar you would be better off holding the attacker close to you and trying to use him as a "pillow" to soften some of the blows you will probably get from his freinds,girlfreind,or even people that dont know you and just fancy a kick!! until the bouncers break it up!. I love to train grappling,i have wrestled(olympic freestyle-albeit not to a great level!)and have a black belt in jiu-jitsu(not bjj) grappling arts are great to train in for a variety of reasons,not least they are great fun,its just that the ground isnt fun in the enviroment i talked about earlier ie british pub(not all of them of course) on a friday/sat night.keep on our feet if possible,get the other guy(if only 1) down on the floor by any means but dont mount him!again your asking to be booted in the head if you follow up on top of him,bloody awful what some people would do to others for fun isnt it,but there we have it,it happens so be prepared!
I agree with you Fire Cobra. I fought an ex wrestler State champion and veteran Delta Force, I knock him out before he able to tackle me. It was 22 years ago. He became my student since. For whatever is worth, I have spend as much time in Iaijutsu/Aikijutsu as in silat, so I know a little about takedown, lockwrists, etc. In our system, if we are able to take you down, you will down for good. Our objective always puter kepala. If you are down, the damage is all ready done. All your ground fighting technique can help you in Valhalla. For some unknown reason, people who disagree with me on the groundfighting techniques gave the the explanation that the techniques is good for defensive manuever or just incase, right? That's all I had said all along :bang: Tristan
Now, I got a chance to reply. Groundfighting is not a great option, if: -against multiple attackers. -against multiple attackers with weapons. -against one attacker with a weapon. Those are just obvious even for strikers. Should you find your opponent standing over you or mounted on you trying to pound your face in, as in these videos: http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=633 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=593 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=576 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=541 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=515 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=516 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=512 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=502 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=479 http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=469 It seemed you have spend so much time watching this than actually practice? IMHO, those picture not worth a dime. Tristan
You knocked out a wrestler before he could tackle you? So, wrestling doesn't work? Whats wrong with the videos? Is it for the fact that fights can end up on the ground? Or they're not in a pub, no weapons, or no multiple attackers?
Yama Tombo said Not completely true, check out this Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter v.s NFL guy: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dVqMIt8jSY"]YouTube[/ame] Brazilian Jiu Jitsu works just fine against those that out weight you and have height advantage. Rahayu Yama Tombo, the grappling you advocate is interesting and there is always a use for knowledge, however in my work I don't have the luxury to go one on one for that length of time as in the video. The concept is great for the ring, or duel etc ... but if I tried to do what the guy in the video does ... I'd get my head kicked in from the guys friends, or by some other bunch of idiots. I would never try to initiate to grapple with a NFL type of guy, because it ties me up for too long. Having said that, I'm a great believer in not being a "purist" and I will steal/copy anything that works for me in real life ... after all, I've got a family to feed ! Salam
The tactics you use will be based on your situation. Ground grappling/wrestling will have its time and place. Its better to have it and not use it than need it and not have it. The multiple attackers scenario is an excuse not to learn needed grappling skilla. Your not going to grapple mulitple opponents As I said previously. the techniques you use will be dictated by the situation. Grappling, BJJ or something else, will allow you to train against a fully resisting opponnent without major risk of injury. This, in my opinion, is its greatest advantage.
Now that's original ... where have I heard that before? ... and that's tautology. We do what we must ... or what we can, but generally agree. Not an excuse, it's my reality that I have to be aware of the potentiality of multiples every day of the week, and it's already been established on this thread that grappling is not suitable for multiple opponents. Yes ... you keep saying that ... more tautology. Good for you, but the way you train is most likely the way you fight. Have already said that this method won't work ... for me, so what is the advantage if the way I fight is not suited to this? Salam
I agree that it is important to train against resisting opponents, as to not get delusional and think you can deal with things you cannot. Groundwork (of which grappling is only a part thereof), is important, as you should be as comfortable on the ground, as you are upright. The problem, in my opinion, lies when it is over trained, and other aspects ignored. As previously stated, there should be a seamless flow between groundwork and standup. The ground is just another arena for us to fight in.
Hormat, I haven't reread the whole thread so I might have missed/misremembered some details but nevertheless. I agree with Mas Tristan that the ground(fight) skills are primarily there to get back on your feet a.s.a.p. Esspecialy on the streets today and in a multi opponent fight. I wouldn't want to be occupied with grappling/subdueing/pressurepoints whilst his buddies are all over the place. knowledge and experience of groundfighting/grappling/shooting is important just because you need to know as much as possible just to 'survive', I agree with that. I've been in some barfights (though I was only suppossed to be working as a bartender) with guys I'd rather not wrestle with. I'm a pretty heavy (all muscles of course ) but smal guy and some of them were like 6ft something. Sure I give myself a change to overpow them with wrestling, not everyone in a bar is a MMA specialist, but since I don't know them I prefer not to. In the 'bar' enviroment I would prefer to go for his knees, his groin, his face and his feet, simple kick and punch. Though we have a fairly extensive set of ground techniques they would just be the less appropiate (not only because of all the glass that will be on the floor ) Most of our groundtechniques are based on kick and sweep techniques anyways. When we use the grappling and submission video's as an example how to, we should not forget that they are refering to a (however fierce) ringsport. Some techniques that would be very useful in a presummed 'real' situation are prohibited, like the kick to the groin and as far as I know to the knee. No rules in a bar, just a ****ed off judge Pekir
Guys, why is groundfighting being equated to grappling? Grappling is just ONE aspect of ground fighting!
That is true, indeed. However, I think I've asked the effectiveness the groundfighting techniques in modern times. Most of the answer I would agree is that groundfighting techniques can be use as a defensive move or just incase scenario. I gave an example of how risky it is to fight with groundfighting techniques in the Bar/Nite Club and of crouwded of people. The very reason I gave that example because that's the place most likely you'll get into unitentional fights. Staying a very low stance with one leg extended or duduk sepok are not effiecient or a very high risk to you in a bar fight. Before anyone give me another defensive statement, consider the crowd around you. Your legs can be easily being broken by people accidently stepping on you, beer bottle to the back of your head or worse got tramped to death. That's before your opponent even throw a punch at you. I'm not saying the groundfighting is not effiecient for fighting but is a higher risk to fight in a small space and foreign situation. I could be wrong too, Tristan
Wali, As far as I can tell I haven't only referred to grappling but to groundfighting in general, submission etc. There were some posts though that specificly pointed to video and such about grappling, jointlocks etcetera. I also stated that we do train a very extensive set of groundfighting techniques (the silat way) which have noting to do with grappling, submission, jointlocks c.s. Even then in most enviroments today I wouldn't prefer not to go down, not even with our own set of techniques. Hormat Pekir
Hi Pekir, I didn't mean you specifically. It just happened to be a reply to one of your posts, so sorry if you felt targeted, Cheers, Wali
