Firecobra said: ground fighting is just stand up fighting lying down!! ************** Hmm Is that simple huh? Could explain to us what is the advantages and disadvantages of the ground fighing technique in modern times? Just courious my friend, Tristan
IMHO, in our system, we have very few groundfighting techniques, our ground fighting objective is to get back up and fight our opponent standing. God's gave us leg to stand on, right When I say in modern times, meaning if you have to fight in the bar area, most likely the space is so tight, fast moving situation, and crowd of people. I was in an ex-bouncer in a Bikers Bar. Anyone who are on the ground is usual they can't get up. Most the fight is ended in less then a minute. "Some" of the ground techniques I have seen, is beautiful to watch, but is useless in a real situation. But I could wrong too..... Tristan
Nobody I know studies ground techniques because they look beatiful. There are other forms of MA for that. Ground fighting is effective in the sense that everything is trained against a resisting partner. Is this something you would necessarily do in a bar fight? Probably not but that isn't an effectiveness issue. It is a situational issue.
Okay then, you have to tell us, are you using the ground fighting techniques as an offensive technique or defensive techniques? What kind of groundfighting techniques that you have learn? What is your position? This slow learner want to know Tristan
Ummm..... I agree with OJ, the most likely fight situation in the West is going to be in a bar or a club with limited room to manouver. Certainly 'our' style of Silat is ideally suited to this as it works best close up. I can safely say that in all my years, I have never seen a real fight(& I've seen many & even been in one or two ) turn into a 10 minute hugfest on the ground a la UFC And I have never ever seen a 'choke out' or an 'arm bar' on the ground. The majority of fights are over fast, usualy determined by the first 3 hits. However, let's face it, you can get knocked down, fall over, slip up on that spilt pint of beer....so then what? We usually adopt a low kick & get up approach, kicking the attackers ankle or knee.
On the Ground Brother Tristan -- God gave us two legs -- most of of us -- but God also gave us gravity, and while our goal is to use that against the other fellow when attacked, we might sometimes find ourselves on the falling end of things ... We have been doing a fair amount of groundwork lately. Summertime in the yard is good for this. Some of this training comes from Guru Stevan Plinck's study of Soeti Hati from his grandmother and uncle; some from Sera. We prefer to stay on our feet upright. But we also believe that a good grappler can do a shoot that isn't always easy to target, and if you miss your strike, you can be taken to the ground. A lot of of our groundwork is to deal with wrestlers or grapplers, so that in the event somebody does try to take us down, we will wind up in control if we find ourselves facing a grappling attack. Also, it might happen that an attack will be instigated while we are already on on the ground, i.e., sitting there, and we have to start our defense from there. Could be having a picnic in a public park when trouble shows us unexpectedly. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. (Avoiding the doggy doo-doo in Guru's yard is another exercise we are learning during this process, and for some reason, I haven't been able to learn this part very well yet ...)
I'm one of those that always manages to step in it, but sounds a great training exercise Very good point about getting attacked whilst on the ground. Not something I have really considered, we usualy expect to go from standing to the ground-some food for thought there. Don't most styles of Silat train in grappling techniques, and therefore how to deal with grapplers? If on the ground and not in contact or being grappled/wrestled by the attacker, we would usualy kick to the ankle, knee or possibly groin from the ground. On the plus side, these kicks are very powerful because of the nature of a ground position. Of course there are the Minagkabau systems that use a lot of groundfighting techniques, but I have little knowledge of that.
The most basic idea of self defense that was mentioned by Cliff Stewart and distilled to three simple rules. 1-Awareness, 2-Ego Management, 3- Target Denial. Denying a target like your head may be more difficult if you have fallen to the ground and someone is sitting on your chest using the "ground and pound". The proof of school boy fights (bully's using the "schoolboy sit'), and the UFC, and wifebeaters or criminals beating in their wife/victim's face is to punch uninterrupted. That means, the bully punches away with anger and joy, and you have the inability to defend. ANY martial should have the positional skills to manage himself in the grounded arena. Mount escape, cross body escape, north/south escape, guard pass, top/side escape, etc. These are the fundamentals. In this area the Brazilians SHINE, period. In other areas like stand up, clinch, weapons, multiple assault, etc,....THEY DON'T. I am not saying that any martial art is superior. It's just in this case,...the hard work is done by the Brazilians, and we can benefit from the fruits of their labor. Every martial artist must have a leverage based, positional escape and counter method. If your instructor cannot demonstrate this in the clinical setting of a gym against a larger athletic opponent, ...then there is less of a chance he will be able to do it in a life or death encounter where "Murphy's Law" is the only one that count for those few seconds. I often hear that, "We prefer to stay standing", but how many of those guys actively practice sprawls against takedowns???? Legendary MMA and Greco Grappler did a seminar for twenty guys. He said, "Stop me from taking you down!". He was 20 for 20. Then he said, "Now let me show you how to counter that." THAT is valid. If you can't do it in friendly settings, you can't do it in violent ones. If you can use your secret Combato/Pressure Points and "Dirty Fighting",....so can the experienced groundfighter. I'm just a beginner. This is just an opinion. Tom Furman www.physicalstrategies.blogspot.com
Indeed, that is very valid. I am very lucky because my instructor also has many years experience of 'wrestling' in several forms, so I always get a Silat perspective on how to deal with many takedowns. We often approach attacks with, 'a catch wrestler' might do this, 'a JJ player' might do that and so on. Then 'this is how we counter it'. Yes of course, knowing how others may attack outside your art is important, but there is usually a Silat technique to deal with these. I'm not saying it has all the answers at all, just that it works for me.
We have Bapak Edward Lebe coming to town soon. Hopefully we will learn his views on the subject in person. My internet based ground fighting just seems to make my ass wider.
Apparently Pak Herman's ground game was terrifying, according to Erik Paulson who is a rather feared BJJ/shoot/catch guy. In my opinion, the reality of it is that you want to run and gun-- stay on your feet and mobile. But if you don't have astounding footwork, like certain guys who learned from old magazines have, you'd better have some ground skills. If for no other reason, because so many people watch UFC and are deceived into thinking that it's the be all and end all. There's certainly something to wrestling and judo. In a one-on-one, unarmed fight, grappling can be very difficult to stop. In a fight, the floor is very well where you might end up, and if you don't have a ground game of some kind you're pretty much screwed. Certain beginners should remember that some people are way, way more novice than others, and not everybody has the footwork of a panther on crack.
The silat I train in starts off in the ground. A student will normally stay there for 2 years, before they come up. Once they are up, their body is conditioned and strengthened to deal effectively in the ground. When on the ground, the aim is to get up quickly and not get tangled in a 1-1 grappling encounter. The ground game we train in is also dynamic, i.e. always on the move, and never just lying on our backs and hoping for the best. Also, it is important to know that "groundfighting" doesn't just mean "grappling on the ground". We train to deal with attacks from stand-up attackers, bringing people onto the ground ourselves from standup, and fighting others on the ground. This is a very contentious issue, but the reality is that we will find ourselves there at some stage, and it's good to be prepared. Like with every other tool, groundfighting should be seen as an overall, integral component of a total fighters "toolbox", that is a seamless part of your movement. Ground, upright etc... should all just blend into your silat, so it doesn't become a segregated, disjointed part of your training. Additionally, silat groundfighting isn't to be confused with BJJ groundfighting, etc...
Also according to Guru Rennie Saunders from around here, who spent 16 years with him from about 1980 - 1996.
Wali, I've heard that several styles train on the ground first and work up. We tend to flow between all levels when we train and have multi-level attacking buah. As you rightly say, it is important not to compartmentalise techniques but to be dynamic & flow between them.
You just named an advantage for groundfighting. You just named a situation which groundfighting can be used. Here is a useful Ground and Pound Defense: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb3BHDK0MSQ"]YouTube[/ame]
as much as i love to train in the techniques shown in that footage-none of them would help you one jot if you got into a fight (real fight) in a british pub on a friday or saturday evening
Amen! That's always the problem with people who never fought on the street. They fantasize how they would fight someone. Most fight in bar ended in less a minute. Either you get hit or you don't, in either case, the bouncer will break the fight. As I have stated before, the groundfighting techniques for us is a defensive move not an offensive move. We do not like to go down with our opponent and we do not try to lock or subdue our opponent on the ground. It is a very difficult to subdue your opponent when he is 250lbs or more. You must do it exactly right otherwise you will be using power against power. The weaker would almost certain will be beaten. Exactly right is the word here. You can assume anything but in a real situation, you do not plan, you act and then you zero in on moving target. Lets thing a moving target and big Bubba is another difficulty to do exactly right. Just my worthless opinion, Tristan
You just named a situation which groundfighting can be used. In a real fight, you did not start the fight by both person on the ground. In training with the grappler, you have to consider, each time his hand moving toward is a punch or strike. You have to respond accordingly. You can not play their game which is wrestling mix with other things and expected to win Tristan
