Ground fighting in the Takamatsuden

boatload of crap. nagato can scrap. thing is, he can BEFORE the bujinkan. manaka can throw, but he can do it BEFORE learning the takamatsuden.

are there ones who are zilch before the buj and REAL GOOD after learning? never heard of it.

well, i can say i have learned personally under a BJJ redbelt in brazil, and have "conversed" with top names in the UFC. so now, what does that get me? credibility? unknowns with titles referred in the internet are a dime a dozen, and have absolutely no bearing on ANY assertions brought into a discussion.

ATTENTION: i have not been to brazil, not known any bjj redbelt personally and, well, knew a guy who was once in the UFC (not worth much, his own words). nuff said.


BTW, TECHNIQUES are the ones that have to be trained and pressure tested to be effective. when it is effective, then you have a skill. punching somebody in the gut with a properly formed fist is a technique. being able to do that efficiently and reliably while somebody is thwarting you is a skill.

i have never known anyone in the buj who has a passable skill in their own fields (standing striking and grappling) compared to their contemporaries (read: same time in training, forget belt rank.) in other arts obtained ONLY within the buj. most scrappers in the buj i knew were scrappers even before they joined or cross-trained(read: got from other arts) to be able to get skilled. the reason they joined is another matter altogether.

a cargo ship of talcum powder, cayenne pepper and opium smoke as metsubushi for a simple question. how many lines was that reply you made?

here is the comment RP referenced:

sankaku-jime and juji-gatame :evil: are VERY SPECIFIC techniques when referenced. RP replied:

that's why i asked: WHERE? and he replied with all this drivel. all spiel but no answer.

hey RP, you said that there are now various kata lists on the 'net. i'm wasn't asking on HOW to do those techniques. i was asking WHERE in the ryuha kata were they in.

by the way: PRONE? or did you mean supine? all out groundfighting (aka no rules and on concrete) while PRONE is very unforgiving.

 

Nope, no secrets. Just hard training under the right teacher and time invested. I'd tell you that but it wouldn't be ninjalike.:vanish:

 

Well...

Supine, some escapes from prone as well.

 

I am not sure if Kano actually contributed something. In my opinion, he only took things away that did not fit in his competition focused sport...

Regards, Tom.

 

PR are we talking about ground finishers or actual ground fighting? So far of the videos I have seen, its all ground finishers, NOT ground fighting. Fighting on the ground is a whole different thing.

Honestly what did you expect with this thread? I truly don't understand its intention. You claim to want to clear up misconceptions, and only provide a cursory rundown of which schools have it, but refuse to put up any thing of substance. Did you really expect people to just take you word for it?

You keep telling us to go train under someone who can teach them, well, that's not possible is it? What with your omnipresent go train in japan with a MK mantra. Quite a few people are not able to live in japan and spend years there, so attaining such training is impossible anywhere else in the Bujinkan world.

At the best this conversation can only become a ridiculous back and forth much like it is now. You keep saying this thread was not meant for detailing specifics, but what the heck else did you expect the non bbt'ers to ask for?

This conversation can go no where until we see some substance. With out substance its all platitudes.

 

I think the conversation is alright thus far, it would be nice to hear what people in the other kans think however.

 

Oops, I lied. There might be more online than I thought.:dunno:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTzP2N7FbNU"]Shinden Fudo Ryu - Shoden Gata - Kata Mune Dori - YouTube[/ame]

There are several variations of the choke done with the feet here, including the one mentioned before.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfMIftTTHzw"]Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu Yoshin no Kata.flv - YouTube[/ame]
Demo of one of the standing finishes.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lk6pm5EyD8"]Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu - YouTube[/ame]
Hontai Yoshin ryu throws for comparison, example of hojojutsu at the end

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFIQrq_V7Y"]Hontai Yoshin Oku no kata - YouTube[/ame]

 

I admire your extremism. Perhaps I should just rob a bank to gather funds and live as I please?

 

Haaaahaha, that's so bad.


Where's the aliveness?

 

PR you posted. What with your omnipresent go train in japan with a MK mantra. Quite a few people are not able to live in japan and spend years there, so attaining such training is impossible anywhere else in the Bujinkan world.

"You will have to ask that of someone in that position."

Are you now denying that you live and train in japan? Because your entire existence on this forum has been telling people to live and train in japan for the real training..

If you are correct, and such things exist, then the issue is, as I said before, people just are not training enough. The syllabus is to large to only train once or twice a week.

 

You will have to ask that of someone in that position. Dunc has been giving his opinion on things.

 

He could still probably teach you a thing or two.

 

Aliveness is not needed or appropriate in every training situation, if it were then FMA would probably loose a good percentage of its drills.

What is technically wrong with the waza?

 

I'm up for seeing that Dunc

 

It's a demo/partner drill

The techniques are fairly standard, in fact was teaching the second one out of guard yesterday and the first is not uncommon either

Again it speaks to what I said earlier and what most agree on - technique without training is useless. Most saying "oh we have that" are not lying, they just underestimate the "flight time" needed for proficiency

Methodology > All

 

This was never supposed to be a thread to explain what we have to others, more of a clearing up of an oft repeated belief that all we have are a few tricks and dirty tactics to get up if taken down.

More importantly, he is 2-1 pro fighter who competed in Shooto while in Japan.

 

So I guess the answer to this question is training. You have to put in the training time. Imho with a art as wide in scope as The bujinkan then you need to put in a lot more then a few days a week.

Question then, does the arts the contain most of the newaza, have things dealing with passing and transitioning from position to position on the ground?

Those were good videos PR.

I wonder then about this thought. Lets say someone who did learn the two schools that dealt with newaza in there entirety and decided to dedicate a few days a week to just grappling(both standing and ground) what it would look like. I theorize it would probably have a passing resemblance to judo newaza.(not taking the competition rules into account)

 

He touched him in the chest with his foot and pulled guard. I'm not saying the finishing position was wrong, but the set up was terrible.

As for the aliveness, I wouldn't normally call anyone out in it but there is pretty much zero in booj.