Ground fighting in the Takamatsuden

And eye-gouges as an escape to a hold!

"If someone grabs you under your arms and presses you onto himself with strength do this to get free: push both of your thumbs into his eyes or into his lower jaw from below or into his thorat. He will have to let go of you."

 

I think there is some confusion about a few things. First of all, newaza is part of jujutsu, not the only part and not necessarily the most important part, but it is a component. Secondly, most traditional grappling arts did not overly fixate on newaza because going to the ground(especially on your back) basically meant you were finished. In a weapons based society, it was universally acknowledged that this spelled death(of course we know that that isn't necessarily the case and they did have contingency techniques for such a reason but in general, staying off of your back was commonsense). Chinese arts almost completely ignore newaza, many wrestling styles called the end to a bout if both shoulders touched the ground, etc.

With the recent relevance of MMA, people tend to think that one needs to train newaza to the extent of bjj or else they cannot be ready for the realz. But is that the case? Methinks not. More than number of techniques, it is one's ability to use what they know, experience, and a strong and flexible body that determine whether or not they are prepared. The TYR curriculum has newaza in it. If you haven't learned this curriculum, you should discuss that with your teacher, or his teacher. No, it is not as extensive as bjj but nobody is claiming it is or that it need be. Nobody would say that boxing isn't good for fighting because there are only 6 basic punches. It is how you learn and learn to use what you have that matters.

There is nothing wrong with the tori/uke model. Problems arise when you forget that both partners are training, the tori is learning how to attack, the uke how to defend. If you are demonstrating or demoing a technique, or are in awe of the person doing the technique, then you might see a different relationship unfold, but as was pointed out, that is a bastardization of the model. "I really try to hit you so if you don't do the defense correctly, you get hit," is the correct approach. There is some room for allowing beginners a chance to explore the techniques without too much fear for their safety, but it shouldn't turn into dancing fairy dust weaving feel good fantasy.

Plus, there were always sparring, randori, taryu jiai, and fighting(even wars) to temper the results of kata geiko. Nowadays, things are different.

 

Not by necessity, but without being tempered by other practises, such as those you describe above, it does have a greater propensity to be poorly implemented.

 

But, as I said, at that point it really isn't the tori/uke model any more than Olympic TKD tapping is knockdown karate kumite.

 

But innefective implementation of it is much more prevalent than effective implementations of it, no?

I'm not saying it can't be effective, and all methodologies can evolve into useless prancing about without judicious implementation - I guess Kihon Kumite (If I have the right term? The no-contact stuff) evolved from sparring.

 

Tori / Uke relationship changes depending on the lesson plan. IMHO:

Tori = learns HOW to apply a technique
Uke = learns WHEN to apply a technique (e.g. during transitions when Tori is vulnerable)

Tori = applies the full range of a technique (as safely as possible)
Uke = steals the technique (steals what works)

Uke = learns to counter
Tori = learns to counter the counters

Uke and Tori = protect themselves and each other at all times (95% intensity with 5% left to bail out to protect each other)

 

Here is something out of the box... how about this...???

Newaza is not taught much because there weren't a lot of specialists/experts around to teach it.

The reason for this could be because of sport. Even thousands of years ago, wrestling competitions allowed for head butts and such things but ground fighting was not allowed. In some cases, going to the ground meant you lost (or lost points).

So without a reason to train it for sport, the only reason to train Newaza was for self-defense.

Newaza for self-defense makes a lot of sense. The don't go to the ground because of multiple attackers or weapons is true, but that is not the context when newaza is strongest for self-defense.

 

Yes, the bastardisation is more prevalent.

I'm not sure of the term you mean. I was comparing the knockdown fights of Kyokushin and the like with the hands at the sides dancing of most TKD clubs.

 

I have partnered with Ishizuka Shihan and his senior students many,many times, they never allowed me to do the technique, it was not mutual. And most of the time I couldnt even escape from there first attack. Just because a kata has a certain way to be done, doesn't mean the senior will make it easy for the Junior.'They were always strong! Fast! and very fluid when they Partnered with me for further instruction. Always humbling, always sending me back with more desire to train harder and try again another day! Never did they let me do the technique!!

 

gtlaau, what to you think the purpose of this type of training was for you?

IME, partner kata has very specific movements and the deviation of movements is when people get injured because that is when openings are created.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that his experience is similar to mine. It's not about deviating from the movements. Rather that the attacks from senior uke are true enough to push your limit and force you to execute the movement correctly and efficiently or get hit.

 

They were keeping to the kata strictly and were not doing henka (I am too low level for that), they were just not letting me get away with doing it incorrectly or half arsed. Also they were showing hard hard it is to do against someone who knows how to attack correctly, yes its a choreographed movement in a sense, but not the way they do it!
Just one small example is from my point of view anyway something like this-

"Graham San, you have been practicing this (kata) for the last 2 hours. Come try it on me. I go over for a few minutes, make a fool of myself, get humbled, and spend the rest of the day practicing for "until next time etc".... " This way I feel like I am learning where all the holes are, the correct timing's and openings (uke and tori) and what it feels like to have the attack be true and correct. I then also get corrected both verbally and physically (Moved) to make Sure I understand where I need to be and when and some of the key points we are working on. I get the correction from both perspectives as well (Tori and Uke).

There are too many other purposes of this type of training to discuss here. I myself only have an insight into them, and no true understanding of it yet. So I would not feel comfortable or experienced enough to talk about what Japanese Shihan are trying to teach a bug like me. And obviously the other details I dont wish to discuss are personal to me, as I was given the instruction man to man.

And I have probably not done it justice trying to explain it above just a little bit. So I apologize if it makes no sense to anyone else.... It does to me though

The original point I was trying to make was, the kata are not always "practiced"so the Tori always prevails and gets a gold star, sometimes Uke makes you work bloody hard until you can do it against anyone and prevail in the end. I have never had Ishizuka Shihan, Aida Sensei or Ogawa Sensei or Kacem fall over mysteriously at the end of a technique I just practiced incorrectly and poorly and let me prevail because I was Tori... nor have I ever succeeded against them ever!!! And during that process you eat a lot of punishment until you can do it!!! And when you go back and continue training, you go straight through your training partner. Its like instant transmission through hardship and correction.

Hope that makes sense.

Gray.

 

I wish I didn't write the above response now, this adequately covers what I meant. Thanks mate!

 

I'm going post something from the Book "Kenshi" by William Coyle (a.k.a. Koyo on this forum):

...Kata, a prearranged series of strikes and thrusts meant to be practised thousands of times, hour after hour, day after day until the movements become part of the swordsman. To become pure instinct so that the technique would 'happen' when called for.

The class was drawing to a close yet there was no let up of concentration or effort. Each and every blow was delivered with the utmost conviction as the trainees drove each other back and fourth across the dojo.

Suddenly. one of the swordsmen deviated from the form and lashed a horizontal cut at the hip of his opponent. There was a sickening crack of bone as his partner instinctively countered and brought his boken down in a cut which had obviously broken the wrist of the attacker.

'Yame! Stop! roared Jubei leaping to his feet and in one smooth motion was between them. The uninjured man was sent staggering across the dojo fighting desperately to keep his feet. Jubei faced the injured swordsman and roared into his face. 'Why did you deviate from the kata?'

'Sensei, I thought I saw an opening and took advantage of it. I was wrong. Please excuse me,' the injured man said bowing deeply.

Jubei ordered the class to sit. After a long and ominous silence Jubei addresses them.

'Watch and learn this lesson well,' he said.

'Onigaishimasu,' he said to the injured man. The class was surprised, rarely did Jubei ask any of them to train with him. He turned angry eyes on the injured man.

Stoically the young samurai tightened his grip on his boken flinching from the pain this caused in his broken forearm. He attempted to raise the boken to seigan, the pain was excruciating. He attempted not to show it and raised his eyes to those of Jubei. He saw no quarter there. 'The kata again,' he said.

The bokens clashed and the shock wave drew all of the colour from the face of Jubei's opponent,. Sweat broke out on his forehead and his arms began to shake uncontrollably.

One more clash of bokens and the young man was in utter agony, 'Yame! Stop!' hissed Jubei. 'Now do you see what one stupid mistake may lead to. The pain is nothing. It can be endured. But your composure is gone. You cannot wield your weapon properly. Even one of those fools fom yedo could defeat you now. You could not mount a defence let alone attack,' he snapped. 'None of you understand the essence of kata,' he roared letting his anger wash over the students.

'Kata is not competition. It is not a game. In competition, one or the other will win or lose. This is acceptable for fools who play games. Kata is life or death. In competition if you come under a strong attack you are free to leap away, a match can be won by an impressive technique that would not kill on the battlefield. In kata when you face a killing strike, you must remain under it to the last split second. This takes courage. This confronts the fear and danger. In competition the combatants are forever breaking away from each other, changing their tactics looking for new ways to win. In kata we instantly take control of the ma-ai (combat distance) we strive to develop our spirit. We apply principles rather than techniques. our techniques are hidden somewhere nobody knows. When people see our kata they only see the stripes of the tiger. They cannot see the spirit and the power. We are forever aware that there may be other opponents. In competition it is already accepted that you may lose, come in second. This is no way for a warrior to think. Death itself can not defeat me'. Jubei seemed to be talking to himself now and the class watched fearfully.

Regaining a little of his composure Jubei turned upon the warrior who had broken the other's forearm. 'Attack,' he said.

The warrior approached. 'Hai Sensei,' he said and bowed deeply. He did not see the short bow in answer which usually was a curt nod of the head from Jubei. The warrior felt that Jubei was about to make a point and decided to accept whatever may come courageously. He launched a shomen at Jubei's head sacrificing power for speed. It was lightning fast.

The class gasped. It had landed. Jubei had been struck. The dojo was as still as a grave yard. Jubei smiled. 'You see?' he asked. He had waited until the last possible moment and entered in under the cut little wonder that the students had thought that they had seen it land. The man who had cut had stumbled forward slightly and was aware of a dull ache where Jubei's boken had stroked across his ribs.

'In true combat, the difference between life and death is as fine as a butterfly's wing' said Jubei. He turned to his opponent. 'You tried too hard you should have used the same timing as you did against that fool's sneak attack,' he said.

'I had no time to think then Sensei,' came the reply.

'Ah! Exactly my point,' said Jubei. 'Your technique is coming along,' he said. Praise indeed from Jubei...

 

I was talking about that crazy Karate stuff were all strikes are thrown short by an inch.

 

I've never done that but I can actually see how that would be a good (albeit difficult) training exercise for distance and so on.

 

This is getting OT, but I see it as a good way to condition yourself to react consistently inappropriately to feints and have an inaccurate sense of range and target penetration.

If you have all those things already, then it might be an exercise worth doing, but if that is how you learn, I see it as seriously counter-productive.

 

Given that we fight the way we train, I'd say consistently training for years and years to work at the wrong distance is a good way to get your ass kicked.

 

Agreed. I took it to mean an occasional training exercise where you have to literally stop an inch short, but then again at that point you may as well follow through. To be clear, it's not something I've ever done nor incline to. (I can't imagine how one would play judo that way! But maybe those no contact "modern Ju jitsu" systems have found a method. )

 

There's light touch sparring 'without' full extension for gaining skills, which is good, and non contact sparring with full extension, which is bad.