Grappling tantrums

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by LilBunnyRabbit, Jul 15, 2002.

  1. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Okay, take a scenario. You've got a young kid throwing a tantrum about his ice cream melting or whatever. For some reason you've got to get him out of the area, stick him in the car, whatever.

    Anyone ever been in this situation? Anyone with grappling training ever been here and tried to use it, how successful was it?

    Take a second scenario. You're faced with someone of roughly equal size and strength with absolutely no training. You've got into a fight and ended up grappling on the floor. They simply throw a fit, same as that kid throwing a tantrum.

    Just curious as to how effective grappling is against someone simply panicking and struggling with all of their strength.
     
  2. Darzeka

    Darzeka New Member

    The key to this is let them play themselves out. Just relax and let them try to hit you, grab hold and force them to struggle to free themselves. Locking theur legs with yours works well. Don't give them any free movement.
    Soon they will tire themselves out or give you a good opportunity them you lock them up and hold them until they calm down or if they continue to struggle break something or choke them out.

    Obviously this is more itended for use against adults but with minor changes could be applied to children. Just don't let them flail about at you, sooner or later they will hit you.

    I had this problem wrestling will my brother a while ago when we were both starting it. He doesn't like being pinned down and goes feral. He managed to flip me on my back by main force then began flailing wildly (not to strike but had the same result).
    I found here that giving him something else to think about helped (jabbed my fingers under his jawline) then as he pulled back gabbed his forearms and waited till he cooled down (he was still struggling here but more to get his arms free than hurt me).

    Just try wrestling with someone and go real slow and defensive. If you don't try to do anything to them they have to make the opening but if you try something then they have an easier path to beating you. Also if they are sitting on your chest I have found two good moves that will prevent you getting too much pain given to you.
    If they are sitting upright then bring your legs up and hook their chest or neck, then pull down and slam them into the ground. If they are forward on you then get one foot beneath you, apply finger or knuckles to any soft point along the opposite side of their body (pressure point if like) or pull down on their shoulder.
    Now push on the foot, rotate the hips and roll on top of them. Is harder to with someone with training but if you are on top you are in control (sometimes).

    Hope this helps and if anyone with grappling training knows better then correct me. You learn more trying something new and losing than using reliable techniques and winning. Which is why grappling is fun - if you win you had lots of fun and if you lose you learn something and had fun.
     
  3. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Maneuver behind,underhook the arms, cover his vision with your palm and sharply push head back,remove his balance(aka kick his legs from under him) and direct him to the ground gently and lock him up as you see fit.If your good you won't need to take out his legs(where the head goes the body follows)

    Or if your a big fella Cinch up dump down

    if your real mean,flash to the eyes, double leg pick up and run him into the car door,overhook into cement,oh sorry this is your kid right:eek:

    Sennario 2 what couldn't I try,I wish my training partners reacted in this way:D
     
  4. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Now, how're you planning to maneuver behind, and underhook a pair of arms which are moving randomly and with considerable force. What about his head, underhooking requires you to be reasonably close, so if they're throwing their head around too you're going to take a head butt to the face.

    Unless you've actually seen the force and energy that goes into one of these tantrums, I think you might not quite appreciate the difficulty involved in restraining someone throwing one. The stuff that you're describing takes time to execute, and while its incomplete he's still going to be struggling and flailing, and those flails hurt.

    I prefer Dar's idea of letting them wear themselves out, but I'd prefer to stand at a distance to do it rather than risking injury by being in close.
     
  5. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    For an experienced grappler - safety is closeness.

    Anyone with a decent level of experience in the standing clinch will negate a striker's attempts to hit. Moving behind and securing a control position is very easy when dealing with a swinging "tantrum". If it goes or is taken to the ground then it's even easier.
     
  6. mmafiter

    mmafiter New Member

    Exactly. I used to work at a young offenders home and I restrained teenagers all the time. You can't just sit back and let them destroy the house, and you can't start throwing strikes at them, so I'd shoot in and take them down, gain position and control him until he was exhausted then I'd pick him up and put them in thier room. Easy.
     
  7. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Got to totally agree with MMAfiter and Yoda.Also thanks for the back up.
    Safety is Closness
    Never a truer word printed
    ckdstudent try this one
    clinch a partner form behind, allow his arms to be free,place your head in the flat of his upper back and cuddle up close,now ask him to fail,while he's failing push up and dump him where you want.
     
  8. fluffydoc

    fluffydoc Carry On MAPper

    Unless there's some immediate danger that means the kid needs moved I'd just ignore the tantrum then give them some attention and positive feedback once they've calmed down.
    Clearly that's not an option when you're scrapping on the floor with an adult but it would depend on whether their "tantrum" was a wild uncoordinated attack on you (in which case I'd agree close is safer, environmental factors allowed for eg glass on floor) or whether they were just freaking out and not particularly trying to get at you any more.
     
  9. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Okay, now taking it a step further (and to the question I was really aiming for) what if their attack isn't uncoordinated, but they're throwing elbows and knees at you from a grip. Assume they haven't got training in grappling, but have to training in making hard bits of their body go in soft bits of other people's bodies, so they're biting, kneeing, and elbowing with a purpose, but without any knowledge of how to grapple or restrain.
     
  10. Darzeka

    Darzeka New Member

    The closer the better. If they can't move back their limbs to swings they ain't gonna be hitting very hard. Grab a hold of everything you can - latch legs on, wrapping them around their legs, bearhugs are good on the ground as is grabbing forearms.

    If you are standing and don't want to hurt them too much a lock throw will work well. Especially if it is a body drop - knock the wind out of them with good control. Then give them something to think about - chokes work well - then tell them in a calm voice to stop struggling or you will have to break their arm/wrist/knee/ etc.

    With the part of knees and elbows flailing about, its remarkably hard to hit someone who is nose to nose with you. Get in close, if they try tomake room step in and take them down as they step back.

    Don't forget pressure points to get them to move where you want them to go.
     
  11. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    The same answer for the same reasons.

    Safety is closeness
     
  12. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Guys been gone 2 weeks and you come up with all the good topics! :)

    Child tantrum: You could just pile straight in and use brute force to overpower them. I've found (I was a prefect in a pretty rough school) that taking a cross hand grab, so that your automatically moving to the outside, play the force of the arm and whip round into a rear bar, side head chancery, palm to bicep head lock, or if your evil rear leg takedown and secure on the ground.

    Adult flailing: You can play it the same way, or cause your the same size (probs, I'm bound to be smaller, ask Melanie ;) ), you can duck under for the waist lock/leg pick up and drop. But once your close, even if you balls it up you have to stay close to minimise striking.

    Elbows: Taking an over arm bear hug to neutralise the arms and keeping on the outside of the body to reduce the rick of being kneed, tuck your head into the guys next to stop from being head butted, and then play for a drop/sweep (which should be easy if he comes onto one leg to knee you). In the clinch you should already be protected from the elbows and head, as Yoda said its easy enough to protect yourself from strikes, scoop theleg when the knee comes in and takedown (what for the other knee on the way down).

    As the other guys have said, closeness is safety.

    Thanx
     
  13. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Hmm, interesting.

    Now, is there any way that a striker (close range or long range striker is irrelevant, call them both) will defeat a grappler once a grip has been established.

    On another level, does the same apply in the opposite direction?
     
  14. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    1st Question: No. Not unless the striker has a good understanding of grappling. Strikers likie Mo Smith that we see beating grapplers in MMS competition can do so because they've trained extensively with grapplers. I have a tape of him fighting Renzo Gracie before he got a decent level of grappling training - he got taken down & armlocked VERY quickly.

    2nd Question: No. A grappler CAN beat a striker even without a decent level of striking ability. The Gracies have proved this beyond doubt. All the grappler needs to know is howe to get in. The striker has maybe 2 shot to take him out - if he fails then he's in. If he's in then it's grappling time & the odds have shifted in the grappler's favour.
     
  15. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    In that case I really cannot work out why striking arts, purely striking arts, haven't died out completely, but I'm sure there must be a reason.

    Are we still talking about in general or have we slipped over to the ring?
     
  16. Darzeka

    Darzeka New Member

    because of "meat heads" who like spending a half hour with big leather gloves on just pounding on each to see who can take the biggest beating while not trying to get out of the way of the punches.

    because grappling doesn't make for very interesting long fights.

    because grappling takes a very strange mindset to be good at (no aggresion until you go for the kill or are being killed)

    because no one ever thinks about grappling in a fight until they do a grappling martial art.

    Homophobia? (I ain't rubbing myself on a another guy!!)

    Kickboxing has been hyped as the "most feral and feriously effective" fighting method. (Well haven't most MA been called that?).

    There is fame in grappling tournaments (do they even have 'em?)

    the list just goes on.

    How many striking martial arts do you know that are comfortable when fighting on the ground? not many because they don't train for it. and when the grappler gets in range it end on the ground either one or both of them.
     
  17. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    I sort of feel you are trying to get a big argument going about which is better,which I don't agree with.

    However,My feeling on this matter is that most fighting/combat arts consisted of striking( using all parts of the body) grappling (breaks and restraients,standing and on the ground)takedowns(throws and body motivated sweeps)weapons(time applicable)

    When Fighting Combat arts went form training people who actually use it(most probaly in there job) to self confidence increasing goal orientated/money making thing we see a loss of constanct testing of students in the real deal.

    In trying to find some way of testing people, competitions where put forward,which meant specific rules,and in present day things like lilablity insurance etc.

    I would also like to add that KOs do regurally happen in Shooto and other MMA.MMA also has a far share of rules.That said MMA also encourges submission but not breaks(yeah I know any submission can be a break but there are some breaking techniques that are not submission )

    My main point I guess is if you are really that keen about volience,I beleive you should spend some time within (as many have and do)the associated industries.There you will find people well versed in all of the above areas even if it is through common sense.
     
  18. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I'm not trying to get a big argument going, I'm simply trying to find any weaknesses in grappling. I'm well aware of the weaknesses in striking, but it seems that there aren't any in grappling.

    I'm not a meat head. That'd be boxing.

    I'm not interested in long fights, neither are any of the people I train with.

    This is part of what I'm trying to find out. Why don't people think about grappling in a fight? I know that I do, I'm just plain better at striking and stand-up grappling.

    A possibility I guess.

    In any martial art, including grappling, you'll find at least a handful of schools that have called themselves something along those lines.

    Yes, lots of them. More in fact than there are striking tournaments I believe, or certainly at least close in numbers.

    I just have a natural skepticism about anyone calling anything invincible, I suppose its possible, I just doubt it. A lot.
     
  19. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    You want weaknesses in grappling? Ok - here are two very obvious ones...

    1. Multiple opponents

    2. Weapons - especially bladed weapons.

    Grappling is a VERY essential part of training if your aim is to be well prepared for REAL combat, but is no "cure all". It is a very important peice of the jigsaw - but still only a piece.
     
  20. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    grappling v fighting

    Train for both striking and grappling its the only way to train. Every technique has a weakness(of sorts) thats why we need more than one in the first place - so that if the weakness is found we can move on to another technique!
     

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