Grandmaster Rhee Ki Ha resigns

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by TonyMc, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    I don't see why a WTF black belt should be demoted if they join the ITF but they must be expected to go back to basics at a white belt level in some aspects to learn sine wave, both 4 directional exercises and the 9 tul to be on par with an ITF 1st dan holder.
  2. Kukkiwon-Swede

    Kukkiwon-Swede New Member

    Yes, learning of course, otherwise why switch organization? I mean of course not de-graded on paper. I think no-one would require someone to turn in their old certificate and then call Kukkiwon to be officially un-registered. He/she shall be allowed wearing black belt during training with no questions asked. He/she shall train to be able to promote directly to the degree already possessed in the other organization. He/she shall *not* train on white-belt level. Unless you call it training on white-belt level when an ITF 5th degree do Chon-ji. The knowledge already achieved shall be utilized to reach the goal.

    What I mean is, you should be shown courtesy when showing interest in learning from another organization rather than be seen with suspicion and someone who tries to take a shortcut. If a person from the WTF/Kukkiwon want's to train with the ITF it isn't probably because he/she wants to go to the Olympics but rather has a larger interest in techniques and pattern. On color-belt level I would basically say that the patterns are equally hard to perform. The Tuls in some sense requires more kicking control where the flying side kick in Chong-Moo is pretty hard jumping up with the kicking leg, especially if you are heavy built, (although I have seen ITF clubs taking a shortcut sliding in the sidekick with a jump) while the Poomsae in general requires more hand/arm coordination.

    But I think I left the original subject. Sorry for that.
  3. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    There is no reason as far as I can see for a WTF or Kukki TKD BB should be demoted at all, except for some ego or for the new instructor to rip the BB off by making them take tests again. The WTFer should be honored for what they have achieved. While they may have some adjustments to make, why would you want to demote them? To me it is demeaning & uncalled for!
    I personally think a person should want to be treated like a new student so they take advantage of getting as much new knowledge as they can. But I am also sure that the WTFer will really be able to teach the ITFers more than a thing or two. To me this is the MA way.
    But I would caution that there is a lot more to learn as a transfer student to the ITF besides SW, some basics 4 direction exercises & 9 color belt Tuls. The ITF syllabus is fairly comprehensive & I have seen far more drop out when trying to transfer than actually stay. These transfers are not limited to WTFers.
  4. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    First I really do not think that it is moving from 1 org to another, but rather it is really 2 different styles. The ITF & WTF come from the same karate roots, but moved away from them differently & with different emphasis. Of course there is a lot of crossover as I think exists in many MAs. But there are very distinct differences.
    For instance You stated "Poomsae in general requires more hand/arm coordination."
    The ITF Tuls require total body coordination. By that I mean the eyes, hands, feet & breath all move in a single coordinated movement. We don't look, step, chamber & execute in a sequence, but rather rock the whole body completely & with maximum power with that total coordination. Even our breathing matches the powerful delivery of the technique. I have heard some call ITF hard TKD, whole some call WTF soft TKD. This is not an attack, but the way some have described the difference in pattern & basic movements execution, as we strive to deliver maximum power each movement. When you finish an ITF pattern, you should be breathing hard as we are required & expected to put concentration into making each movement as powerful as possible, unless of course the pattern instruction directs you to do a movement or sequence in slow, scooping, natural or connecting motions.
    (A whole other topic)
  5. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    Kukki-Taekwondoin are taught to do things step by step, but this really is for beginners. After the basics are learnt then students should be looking, stepping and chambering during the movement and finishing the execution as the motion finishes.

    I'd imagine Kukki-Taekwondoin breathes the same - in during the preparation phase, out during the execution phase. However, I have heard Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-doin really emphasise this (too much in my opinion) and Kukki-Taekwondo's breathing is much more subtle.

    For a full contact sport having it referred to as "soft" would come across as an attack ;-)

    However, in this case I understand why you've heard it this way although I disagree with it. I describe the two as static and fluid. Ch'ang Hon seems much more "stoppy-starty" than Kukki-Taekwondo.

    This seems because there are periods of stationary positions and when it's time to move in to the next move, everything is fast/powerful. In Kukki-Taekwondo the preparation phases move much slower than the execution phases (the um to the yang). This makes Kukki-Taekwondo look much more fluid (to me), however the power delivered is no less (again, IMHO).

    Doing poomsae in Kukki-Taekwondo should also raise the breathing rate. We still deliver the movements with power, we just don't tense every muscle during every part of the pattern (believing that relaxed muscles can generate more speed).
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I can only speak for my ITF offshoot but you most definitely should not be tense during every part of the pattern for exactly that reason. Tension comes only at the delivery, during movement you should be relaxed and fluid.

  7. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    This sounds like Kukki-Taekwondo delivery style as opposed to TKDStudents "rock the whole body completely & with maximum power with that total coordination".

    In which case I don't understand how the two differ except for sine wave and emphasised breathing... (ignoring minor technical differences in starting position, ending position, etc - just talking about overall delivery).
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Again, I'm TAGB so our take on things is perhaps different, but I think the impression of tension can sometimes come from the longer and lower stances when compared to Kukki-TKD, at least what I've seen of it.

    I also dislike the emphasised breathing common in many practicioners, the odd hissing that akes them sound like some steam powered robot. If a pattern is, as we are told, attacks and defences against an imaginary opponent, then anything that restricts your breathing is wrong as it would hinder attack/defence by leaving you out of breath faster.

    My breathing is always audible by the end of a pattern, but that's because I'm old ad knackered :D

  9. Kukkiwon-Swede

    Kukkiwon-Swede New Member

    I'm just talking from my limited ITF knowledge, I did ITF for 6 years and I have a fair clue when it comes to Tul up until 1 dan. I still would say that the Kukkiwon Poomsae requires more hand/arm coordination than the Tuls up to Chong-Moo. As a grading pattern to 1 dan Chong-Moo is in general harder than Taeguk 8. The coordination, eye-control and so that you mention doesn't differ from any Tul/Poomsae/Kata, I mean they are basic properties of any pattern. And breathing, everyone must breath :). When I started ITF everything was centered around the ITF and the ITF perfected everything that wasn't correct with other MAs. After training for Nidan in Shotokan and having a dan degree in Kukkiwon I have realized more of similarities than differences. BUT, I would say that the black belt Tuls are a lot harder than black belt poomsae. And more beautiful.

    If you are breathing very very hard then one is probably tensing up to much. Use the tension when you need it, i.e. just before hitting the target.
  10. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I am sorry but please understand I was only talking about the patterns & how people explained those differences being hard & soft. Of course the WTF rules are full contact & that results in some very fast, powerful kicks with a lot of quick stepping & lightening fast counters that eliminate the need for blocking. ITFers can learn a lot from this IMHO.
    So my comments were not an attack at all. When it comes to patterns I see a big difference even from the top performers.
    I guess we have to define power & fluid. To me fluid means a flow from relax to power, which I know is mandated for the ITF. I get the impression & please correct me if I am wrong, that you see fluid as more of an even flow. To me an even flow does not generate maximum power, but starting from relaxed & then exploding does.
    Is that what you mean by static & stoppy-starty?
  11. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    No need for apology, I understood where you were coming from and I read that you were careful to explain that you didn't mean it in a bad way. Completely understood. All I was trying to get across is that those choice of words - hard/soft - will always invoke strong feelings as soft is equated with weak.

    No, I agree with your definition of fluid - gentle-power-gentle-power.

    Look at the first 10 seconds or so of this video - [ame=""]Taekwondo Poomsae Seminar by Ik Pil Kang (8.dan) - YouTube[/ame]

    This is a Kukkiwon instructor and world poomsae champion GM Kang, Ik-pil. He shows the same movements over and over again (as he's teaching). During each movement the preparation is much more relaxed than the execution phase you can see the gentle/slow-fast cycle.

    What I mean by how I see ITF being static may be due to the lack of combinations. When there are combinations (e.g. there may be in Chung Moo, I don't know the pattern, but from watching it here - [ame=""]Choong-Moo Tul - YouTube[/ame]) they are more of a 1...2...3... style rather than Kukki-Taekwondo 1...23... so ITF strikes more as more of a stop-start style rather than the fluidity. I must admit from that video, it seems much more fluid than I had in mind, but the sine wave really puts me off - I'd like to see the same pattern done without sine wave so I could consider the static/fluidity more.
  12. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    See this is a big difference with the ITF. In the ITF we teach patterns correctly from the start. However before we teach the patterns we teach the new, additional movements that are contained in the pattern in isolation as basic fundamental movements before we teach the pattern itself. I am of course talking about how Gen. Choi taught & wanted his instructors to teach. This is all outlined in the 15 Volume Encyclopedia of TKD. So I am sure that this may not be followed by some.

    From my experience, ITFers do tend to exaggerate this. However I opt for exaggeration as it helps to insure students breath correctly. When the audible is not there, IMHO the correct breathing is often lacking. Also in ITF competition this is a graded criteria, so many competitors make sure that they emphasize this as it is required to exhale at the moment of execution. Gen. Choi himself taught that the loud audible was not necessary. But some believe more is always better! ;)

    In ITF TKD the movement must accelerate as it is being delivered. Is this what you mean?

    An ITFer to be correct in their pattern movement must be completely relaxed during the execution, with the speed accelerating during the movement preparation & execution phase, with maximum power exploding at the moment of impact, with some exceptions are directed by the exact & proper instructions contained in the Encyclopedia. Tension & tense muscles IMHO do slow down a technique & reduce power. That is not the ITF way.
  13. Kukkiwon-Swede

    Kukkiwon-Swede New Member

    A fair comparison for this move in poomsae Taebaek would be the first moves in Won-Hyo Tul. The steps in Tae-baek is more close to kata Heian Nidan. However, in Won-Hyo "knee-spring" is used and thus you get the "sine-wave" anyway. I never thought of this like you wrote, a 1...2...3 compared to a 1...23... and so on.

    Just an interesting note, in kata Heian Nidan the "rising block" for this move is merely for generating more power in the "bakkat makki" of the other arm rather than a block itself. I'm not sure what either Kukkiwon or ITF says about this (sang palmok makki).
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  14. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

  15. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    That's not the best example of 1...23... though, I was using that as an example of relax-explode-relax-explode, although recently people do seem to be going 1...23... on that movement, but that's not Kukkiwon official.

    I'm sure you'll be able to come up with a better example than me as you also know the ITF tul. I'm after a sequence the same in both where in Kukki-Taekwondo it's done as a combination in quick succession rather than one, two, three in the same time.

    Or maybe even a simple example where there is a combination (where two or more moves are done quickly together) in an ITF tul?

    That is an interesting note. Thanks for that.
  16. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Sir the best way I could explain it to you over the limited medium is that most people do forms with either tension or now real power at all. I am talking about all, regardless of style or MA. So this is not a dig, slag or attack.
    But take that same student who merely forms a block instead of executes a block & have them do the same exact move against a live opponent who is attacking with a pad. Once then how the block is actually executed as they know they must use power, if not the pad will hit them. In the ITF we are taught to move the same, target or none & generate that same power in the Tuls/Patterns even thought your opponent is only imaginary.
    Try this simple experiment if have have not already & you may see what I mean more clearly.
    The beauty of SW is that is moves the WHOLE body into the movement & when executed correctly gives technique that rock the whole body movement.
  17. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Valued Member

    In Kukki-Taekwondo we break all movements down in to steps and keep the beginner doing it that way then combine it with fluidity to maintain the correct in-between positions.

    From my limited experience with ITF (actually TAGB) students, they seem to go to doing the movements fluidly too fast and don't spent long enough getting the technical details of how the movement should progress. But that just might be my limited experience of students in my area.

    We do this too...

    It's a point for consideration during tests, but it's more about not holding your breath and not inhaling during the execution phase than being able to hear it on every movement. Much more subtle.

    Indeed, I'd understood from an earlier post and my earlier understanding that there should be constant-speed motion throughout a movement in ITF Taekwon-do, hence stop-start. I believe we're more on the same page now.

    OK cool, so that's another difference crossed off as being a mistake in understanding.
  18. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    The use of SW when done correctly helps move the whole body into the technique from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head. So yes we utilize our stances differently because of this movement. Everyone should be breathing hard after doing patterns, provided you are exploding with power on each movement. If you are just going through the movements then you won't expend too much energy IMHO.
    I already addressed the audible breathing in an earlier post above.
  19. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Please do not feel you must answer this as I respect one's right to privacy. But may I ask where did you study ITF TKD & under who? Did you ever train directly with the Founder?
    As far as doing a pattern & being out of breath, please think of it this way:
    ChonJi Tul has 19 movements. When you finish this pattern you should be breathing like you would after striking the heavy bag with maximum power after 19 strikes.
    Wouldn't you agree?
    If you do the BB Pattern So-San Tul & its 72 movements or strike the heavy bag 72 times with maximum power you would be pretty wiped, no?
  20. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Again Sir this is difficult to do over this forum, so I am sorry. But you have to understand that in the ITF we have fast motion, continuous motion & connecting motion. This is in addition to the regular motion & consecutive motion for kicks & the natural motion for certain movements that must be performed with out full power.
    But a good example of Won Hyo as compared to the video you posted would be a better comparison. When you see the series of those similar moves, which all BTW come from karate, you may see the clear difference in the power generation. Yes as stated we do use SW & in this case it does come from the knee spring, which enables the whole body to come into the movement. In your video, both the instructor & BB students all seem to use mostly their upper body for power generation.

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