Where to start...... First let me say the WKSA (when I was with them) had you set your testing fees prior to the Licensee signing the agreement. This was kept on file at the WKSA. If your a Professional school ( that is all you did to make money ) you kept it all, if you where a Semi Professional school ( teacher has a school but only teaches part time ) they kept 50%, school that where called Amateur schools kept NOTHING! There is NO Way to tell from the school listing on the WKSA web site which school is what type. Second, since I do not know who your teacher is it is hard to tell you anything about his overhead. When I gave tests it was at least a 10 hour long day for myself. Preparing the school, my time to go and purchase and cutting the wood to break, giving the tests ( average black stripe test in my school was over 6 hours long ), filling out paperwork and testing charts for each tester ( which I kept in files for each student ) , plus allot more... I charged $25.00 for a white belt and worked up $10.00 per belt. The test got longer each time. Also did the prestige of that rank. You pay for alot more than a piece of tape and a piece of paper. I also charged $10.00 per stripe test. If you think about this: if you go out to eat and get a GREAT STEAK DINNER, how much are you willing to pay? The memory lasts for a couple of days and that is all. You are there for around an hour or so and then leave. During a test in Martial Arts you will remember your tests each time you put on your new Belt. One last thing did that steak cost the restaurant the same thing you paid for it? It is called a business and your teacher needs to eat also. Do you want them to come to your business and say hey your charging to much for that soft drink. It costs you 25 cents and your charging $1.50?:evil:
Not my teacher, my brothers. And regardless of all that, It's still extortionate. I myself study JJJ in a small club but from a hugely experienced sensei who is just there to pass on his knowledge, and because he enjoys it. Not to make money from me. I pay £5 per lesson (2 hours) - And £10 a grading ------ HOWEVER you put it, £50 is not on, like I said that's a months worth of lessons AND a grading in one. There is just no way to justify the price it would seem other than people wanting to make money. Heard all I need now, I just thought there might be some underlying reason for the costs.
Maybe the training fee's are cheaper at his school? I dunno?!? However £50 seems way too expensive and being a school owner I'd find it hard to justify this. But each school is different and have different overheads etc. btw WKSA don't set or even ask you what your testing fee's are. It's entirely upto the individual school and instructor. At least in the UK that is! Just for the record I remember most of my steak dinners. The memory lasts more than a few days I also remember all my gradings with great memories!! However I also remember times when I feel like I've been ripped off, it puts a sour taste in your mouth. I prefer my students to never associate that with me. By DBN level they usually help me out a great deal so I respect them for it. As long as my costs are covered then that'll do me
Just FYI, in the UK I do not know, but here in the States read your School Owner's Handbook and you will find that information. if I remember my conversions correctly it would be $50.00 = around 30 pounds; give or take. So with that in mind how much is your monthly lessons? How many students does you teacher have? What is his overhead? Think about it this way: remember Commercial cost are allot higher than non Rent: 1500.00 a month Electric and Gas = 300.00 a month Phone = 110.00 a month Internet = 50.00 a month Advertising = 2000.00 a month Misc. (cleaning, supplies) 40.00 a month TOTAL = 4000.00 a month average student paying 75.00 a month over 53 students just to break even this is with them not making a dime... the numbers are just examples so think about how much a PROFESSIONAL MARTIAL ART TEACHER SHOULD MAKE A MONTH. I am sure your teacher is not living in a 6 bedroom house with a maid. How much do you make in a month? What is it worth for their knowledge? Pay it or get out. Kuk Sool is a great Martial Art but it does depend on the teacher. I forgot insurance which is out of control! :evil:
^ Again it's not my teacher it's my brothers. And no, £50 = $79! And it shouldn't be a living, because to make that kind of money you have to over charge. It should be something you want to pass on to keep it going, and because you enjoy it. Found out all I need to know now anyway like I said, if I want 40 ways to escape a wrist grab I'll let you know.
Complaining about $79? Try BJJ in NYC. $279/mo...with discount. It seems the complaint is 2-fold: 1) Cost is too high...to which, there are many schools that are cheaper and many that may be costlier. It all depends on school, location, art, whim of the instructor and market forces. 2) KSW is not worth it because all you are able to discern is ineffective material and wrist grab escapes. That is looking down at another art nonsense...and if I were to do the same, JJJ would fare even worse. I cross-train KS and BJJ and I can tell you that one of the most fluid and technically sound transfers occurs when a hapkido-based MAist transitions into BJJ.
You do realise Judo and BJJ came from JJJ right? That it contains pretty much all the same techniques plus a hell of a lot more? That Krav Maga contains a lot of JJJ? - That pretty much every military combatives system leading right back to Sykes-Fairburn contains JJJ? I don't understand your logic, why would you look down on it when you study a large aspect of it? - And JJJ into BJJ is probably one of the best transitions tbh since guess what? It's just the ground aspect of JJJ and you will of done a lot of it already. How do I know this? I've recently started BJJ as well about 2 months ago.
Before anyone even replies can we just agree to dis-agree. We are all individuals, we are all looking for something different and are all happy doing different things. I tend to see the good in most martial arts systems and adopt the view "You can learn something from every single one" - But there are exceptions that I have come across of course. It's 3:20am here, i'm off to bed, feel free to keep posting after this but I won't be replying to it lol - night
Ok, "KSW is not worth it" then why train in it? KS training teaches (if you have the right teacher) great joint locks and other real concepts. I do see a problem in WKSA and that is that they do not teach concepts but just basic movements. There are a few good teachers left in the WKSA but it has become (in my opinion) watered down. People that do not hold value in something will not pay for it. If you hold value in something you will! I have always invited any student to come to my school from any style as long as they are NOT a stupid idiot. I have shown TKD students what their teacher never did about kicking and body mechanics. I have had MMA fighters come in and learn new things from my Yellow belts. Yes, if you are a good fighter you can fight but learn the concepts not the just the techniques. and to JamesR AND yes, 50 pounds does = around 79 dollars. 30 pounds = around 50 dollars. the average tuition for a Professional School of Martial Arts in America = $100.00 a month with only 2 classes a week. So your brother is getting a good deal, if he was in the states. I again say this to you all, If you do not like it, LEAVE! Just remember that not everyone is like you and wants the same out of the Martial Arts as you do. If that was true then there would be only one Martial Art style in the world, that would be boring. My best friend is into Kick Boxing, I do not tell him his style is crap, I encourage him to go to class and learn as much as he can. I go to his fights and even been in his corner on a few. He wins, he loses. But he has fun and enjoys it. i leave on these words: All Men Are Brothers!:evil:
I'm no BJJ expert by any means but going into my 8th year in BJJ most probably has allowed me to see more than your 2 months. From my experience, JJJ and Judo folks are certainly skilled but they come with lots of baggage. They come to BJJ and when shown something, they immediately say, "oh, thats called [insert japanese term] in my art." Wrestlers come in with incredible fitness and a pretty good top game so they may start strong but quickly fizzle because wrestlers hate being on bottom (its counter-intuitive to their wrestling background) and so they never develop a strong guard. There are always exceptions of course. My BJJ instructor loves hapkido and muay thai folks transitioning over the most. And I have heard this from many other BJJ instructors all over the US. One of the big things in BJJ from both top and bottom is wrist control. Casual practitioners only see the fancy armbars, triangles, heelhooks...but before you get to that point, much is all about positioning and hip/wrist control.
Follow the conversation of the thread and practice some comprehension please. You claim to be an educator so I assume you can do that much. The OP feels KSW is not worth the £50 cost and listed some reasons why. He does not train in it, his brother does.
I wouldn't have enough information to answer your question. Without the details I couldn't determine the justification for the cost. Every business is different as far as location, overhead, insurance exc. Also what do the lessons cost per month, and what is included in the testing process? About twenty years ago MA classes averaged $35-$55 per month in the US and testing fees were about $30 per belt level. Monthly tuition averages about $115-$130 per month in the US today. A high end school could be upwards of $150 per month so if you take inflation into consideration then perhaps $50 per stripe would not be out of line. Again it depends on many factors when determining pricing policies. What I don't understand is why many people think that only people that give MA lessons away are the only quality instructors? Anyway I know this doesn't help much but it's just my 2 cent FWIW.
especially when overhead in a typical big city is well over $5000/month. the way to negate money whining is to offer top of the line education. regardless of the style, if you are not getting bang for your buck for over one testing cycle, why stay at it. this is the beauty of capitalism: if your product is not what the market wants, then you fail. obviously your brother's teacher is still in business, so he must be doing something correctly, no?
That would only apply to certain systems, imo, and besides there have always been teachers teaching MA for profit. It's nothing new just look back at the European sword systems or at certain points in Japanese history and you'll see it, take a quick look in the Gorin no sho and you'll see mention of it. Why shouldn't someone do it for a living? As long as the quality and integrity is there then it shouldn't be a problem.
I have, so please do not not insult me. You said "KSW is not worth it because all you are able to discern is ineffective material and wrist grab escapes. That is looking down at another art nonsense...I cross-train KS and BJJ" you did not quote anyone else. I was responding to YOUR statement. If you did not want to say it your should have "quoted it". I understand the Op does but how you wrote it it was you saying it. This was a very simple mistake for anyone to make because of how you wrote it. If have not put you down at all but you seem to be attacking me? I am apologetic for misunderstanding your point. :evil:
WWHHHHAAAATTTTT? The more you make the higher the price. Economics 101! Why would I, as a Martial Art Teacher want to make less because my students make more?:evil: And not really. I have friends in the UK and they make as much as allot of folks in the US. In fact the US is actually far different than everyone thinks. An average person brings home for a single person per year of 24,000 dollars a year. This is not allot. Yes when you add all the high end people to that you get allot higher average. But let us not fool or selves, it is not good any where. With the number that where given it seems in ALL comparison he was getting a good deal.
Think about it this way JamesR: how many days a week does your brother go to classes? How long are they? What does he pay for tuition? Do the math. HOW MUCH DOES HE PAY FOR AN HOUR OF INSTRUCTION? Example: 100.00 a month 2 classes a week average of 52 weeks in a year which brings it to 4.333 weeks in a month 4.333 x 2 = 8.666 classes a month 8.666 into 100 = 11.54 per hour this is not including any thing extra... :evil:
