Got into a fight after several years

Worse in some ways. Most people in a fight get a bloody nose or black eye that's gone in a week.
Getting charged as part of an assault using weapons is going to be with you forever.

 

Without more detail about the preamble it's hard to know what could have been avoided. Yes it sounds as if the BiL is not the guy you really want to be out drinking with, but sometimes with families that's difficult to avoid. In that situation, the op wasn't party to the initial altercation. The bouncers only elected to throw out one party involved, which from what I've seen is pretty unusual in and of itself, which might indicate that the BiL didn't act excessively, at least not in the initial altercation. With the situation he found himself in outside the club, after deciding to leave (which probably wasn't a bad idea, although trying to make sure the assailant was no longer outside first might have been wise), attempting to take the assailant down may not have been unreasonable. Once the BiL produced a weapon, that changed the game. Getting the hell out of there might have been reasonable, or changing your focus and trying to talk down the BiL first and foremost if you thought you could do so safely (by which I mean without the BiL treating you as collateral and without putting yourself at risk from the assailant). But unless you had reason to believe he was carrying a bottle on him at the time then you can't be expected to treat him as if he does.

 

Next time smack everyone, the guy 150% your size who you manhandled, the bouncers who you escaped and all his mates.

Knock em all out, photos and vidz for technique analysis appreciated.

 

Let me break it down a bit more then, just based on what the OP wrote.

If anytime something bad happens and you automatically think it was someone you were with, it's probably a good idea to no longer go out drinking with them as they are a problem. Plain and simple.

[Cut through the surprisingly detailed description of a fight]

So while the fight is getting broken out, his brother in law further escalates it, this time with a weapon. Again - don't go out with this type of person period if you want to avoid a problem.

And then the OP further escalates it by breaking away from a bouncer just to jump back into the fray and fight again.

Considering I see the same behavior from drunk college-age kids every weekend at the bars in my area, I apologize if I'm not incredibly impressed.

Don't go out with questionable folks and don't get involved in their nonsense.

There are guys I've been friends with for many many years who I have had to tell quite simply I cannot go out drinking with them anymore as they're a problem. If they can respect that, they're still a friend of mine. If they can't, then I'm sorry to see them go but such is life.

Another word of advice - If you don't know why others are fighting, it's best not to get personally involved. His brother in law could have been the one completely in the wrong in the first place, thus starting the entire thing.

I can't say I've never engaged in this kind of behavior in my younger years, but fortunately I pulled my head out of my behind quick and realized the futility behind it. There have been times I've let a friend or two fight his own battles simply because I and those with him were tired of fighting them for him.

By all accounts the OP is just as much at fault as the others and I hope for his sake that (if this is true, as we've had a few "bar fights" pop up here on MAP that turned out to be false) he learns his lessons and does not see criminal charges from this. I know several officers from over in DC from training seminars and the like, and they all deal with enough nonsense as it is.

 

Well, I'm man enough to hold my hands up and admit I may have been wrong, you've convinced me.

 

Hahah, lots of colorful responses here. So far, I have to say Oddsbodskins has been dead on with his analysis. My bil is about 46 years of age now, he doesn't pick fights with people. He goes to the gym every day but he knows he's no young kid. What you have to understand is, when I say these two guys were bothering my sisters, my wife and a few other girls, I mean they kept bumping into their shoulders walking in and out of the middle of the circle (while everyone was dancing). lol who bumps into womens' shoulders deliberately? They just kept turning around and ignoring them and when they didn't listen, my bil had to get involved and kindly asked em to leave until they started making excuses as to what they were doing wasn't bothering anyone, except that they were. Given that my bil grew up in Queens, a concept here many will not be able to understand: once a New Yorker always a New Yorker. That's where he told em to get lost. The small dude that started it was quick to walk away but his buddy got in my bil's face and the bouncers quickly took him out. Obviously he had to have been involved in some other confrontation that night for the bouncers to have kicked him out that quickly.

This is when I came inside and received the story from everyone. Since this occurred near the main entrance on the main floor, I saw him around the corner outside still being subdued by his friends and some bouncers (the building was at the corner street). The party was ending and people had to start leaving so the smart thing to do was to probably expect something might happen. This is where my bil stuffed an empty beer bottle in his coat that I didn't know about. If you grew up in the ghetto and you know you're gonna get jumped by someone bigger or by multiple guys, anything goes to defend yourself. Similarly, this is a similar concept in Ninjutsu (although my bil doesn't train in MAs).

When we stepped out, the guy quickly noticed us about 100ft down the street as he was still being subdued by a bouncer and his friends and he started yelling even louder and taunting my bil. My sisters and I were telling my bil to just leave especially since we were conveniently parked in the other direction. Fortunately, I was standing on the side closer to the loudmouth when he broke free from them and he started running down the sidewalk while the rest of my family had their backs faced toward him. Hell, the guy was a nut, for all I know, he would have hit my wife or my sisters even, so I threw the first hit by instinct and that's how the altercation began.

I go out with this same group probably once a month or so for the past few years. I generally go to make my wife happy since I don't drink and I'm not really big on dancing. Everyone is older and in fact, I'm the youngest of the group at 28 years of age, so rest assured, no one goes out looking to start fights especially since it's just my bil and myself as the only guys. There is rarely ever a problem, and this has been the first time things have gotten this physical with our group. Every action we took was out of self defense.

Hey, Oldi. 1) Yes I have been in more fights than I can remember but those were particularly growing up. I used to get beat up pretty badly all throughout elementary school where I'd get sent to the hospital with concussions. In sixth grade I began fighting back and honestly, I never took anything from anyone again. I was the quiet, skinny, nerdy kid that people loved to pick on but when they did, I wouldn't hesitate to react. 2) Most of my fights in my school years were just crazy adrenaline rushes where I'd lose my mind and start swinging wildly and throwing people around. The adrenaline makes you feel invulnerable. Every time you're hit, you don't realize it. 3) During my school years, I had only partially practiced taekwondo at a very non-competitive junior level which at most was enough to give me confidence to start fighting back. After a few years, people eventually stopped picking on me and started becoming my friends instead. There was one other instance after high school which actually occurred a few years ago where some new-to-town [drunk] guys came in to my best friend's lounge and started a fight with my friend's brother. The fight involved probably about 30 people. I punched one huge guy in the back of his head since he was on top of my friend and before he could beat the crap out of me, they all got kicked out and were threatened that the police were called. We ended up taking them to court a few months later and won the case.

The problem with both of my past 2 altercations has involved crowds of people to the point where I haven't been able to have much room to apply any real martial art other than good, solid punches. I almost had the guy (from Saturday night) in a position to crush his adam's apple when I switched one of my arms from the back of his neck to the front of his neck and was going to step around to the side to squeeze his neck between both arms but had no room. I'm still learning a lot of the techniques in ninjutsu and I don't remember most of their names yet but I remember how they're done, so I apologize for the crappy descriptions.

 

Just strongly expressing my opinion like I always do, my friend. I know not everyone will agree with me but having gone that road myself and seeing the consequences of many of those who I've seen succumb to it, I don't want any part of it. I see far too much of it on a weekly if not daily basis, and it all boils down to fights over minor issues fueled by alcohol and pride.

Like I said, I can't say I've never been guilty of the same (I've actually had a bottle or two broken over my head in my day) but fortunately I learned fast as I saw many other friends learn the hard way.

 

Refer to bold text for my replies.

*edit - Not that I wouldn't entirely take my bil's word alone, but the rest of my group were telling me the same story when I asked them what happened.

 

Word of advice - Next time you have problems with people inside the club and talking won't work it out, leave as soon as you can. Even if you get that particular individual kicked out, friends can still be around who will take offense to getting their friend/s in trouble. Better to avoid the situation entirely and leave when your gut tells you to.

Another word of advice - Next time take a different exit or explain to security the situation. Tell them the idiot being restrained outside wants to fight your brother in law and that you obviously don't want to further escalate things anymore, so would it be okay if you waited inside until the guy left? If they are absolutely adamant about you leaving, there's no shame in calling 911 and having the police respond just in case.

In my neck of the woods, altercations inside a bar typically end up being shootings outside of one. Something to keep in mind.

I'd take a long hard look at what you told us and see if you honestly believe that. True self defense isn't physical. This situation could have been avoided by many, many factors. What you're describing is mutual combat more than self protection.

 

The subsequent information is significantly different from your OP of course - so you can't use that as a basis for refutation, only clarification

I do not think Kuma would let anyone come to harm under his watch - personally or professionally

 

Please refer to bold text.

My apologies to Kuma. Didn't think I had to explain the story in more detail so I skimmed through much of it. Honestly didn't expect it to get picked apart this much, haha, figured people would just take my word for it. Lesson learnt.

 

We've actually had many posts like this that ended up being false in the long run, hence why we may act the way we do.

Case in point:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104565&highlight=chain

 

And as a final point - The best test to see if you acted right in a situation? Run it past your instructor. If you have any hesitations about doing so, you might want to think about why.

 

Guess I still have to get used to this forum more before I start having any kind of expectations. Thanks for the head's up.

I think this is a good idea. I will do this.

 

I must say I've been around situations similar, I tended bar at one point in my life. Faced with the situation the OP suggests I would have probably acted similar. Couple of points or rules I try to abide by. First of all if you can avoid a fight by all means you should try, second try not to take it outside to many variables and your more likely to get arrested. Third when it's over it's over win lose or draw. The OP is 28yrs old he's got little experience of situations such as these, my advise is to always avoid trouble and please do not take this post as an encouragement to use violence. Use this experience to learn what you could have done differently.

 

That's not entirely how it works in the US. Each state has different laws here, but generally speaking bouncers are also responsible for the parking lots and sidewalks outside their establishments. In fact most fights happen on the sidewalks or in the parking lot during closing time. Bouncers can even restrain someone down the street and call the police to intervene if the threat were sufficient to warrant a citizen's arrest type scenario. It's just like anywhere else that is predominately civilians. If one person acts out and endangers everyone around them, civilians can cooperate to restrain the dangerous person and contact the police to resolve the matter officially.

 

I just wanted to second that this is good advice for the OP to follow if he ever finds himself in a similar situation in the future. If the staff is reasonably well-trained, then they'll either let you stay inside while they close up for the night or they'll escort your party to your vehicle. When I was a bouncer we did that kinda thing all the time. If you have a choice, always let the professionals deal with those situations. At the very least, the law generally sees their actions more favorably than it does a random drunk patron.

No, anything does not go. You're still legally liable for your actions. Even if it doesn't always make sense from a security standpoint, the law expects you to use proportional force to what is actually used by your assailant, not what you perceive might happen. Essentially, if they swing a fist at you, you may swing a fist back at them, etc. If you escalate the force by employing a weapon, legally speaking that ceases to be self-defense and turns into assault. I'm pretty sure your wife doesn't want you going to prison for a stupid bar fight and having it effect the rest of your life as a result of poor "anything goes on the street" judgement.

And ninjutsu deals with medieval Japanese soldiers fighting other soldiers using ancient weapons and guerrilla tactics. That's not entirely applicable to a random fight outside of a club based on wounded pride. Like all traditional martial arts, especially weapons-based systems, ninjutsu doesn't even attempt to address modern self-defense laws.

 

The way I see it Sandninjer bravo! You did well, your brother in law was only protecting your sisters, wife and so on, well done to him too.

Some of the responses make it sound like some people here are clueless, have a family night out, get into trouble, then avoid going out with them to avoid future confrontations? LOL!

 

Protecting his family from what? Some guy chatting up his wife?

My girlfriend told me many years back the best thing to do is for men to keep out of such situations. Women are used to stupid drunks hitting on them. They can handle it better than we can. Usually the guy will eventually leave...throw in some macho "that's my bird" rubbish and it escalates.

If the guy was getting physical, that's different, but experience has taught me she's right. But then again she always is!