Goshin Jutsu Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by BlueDragon1981, Apr 22, 2003.

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  1. BlueDragon1981

    BlueDragon1981 In the House of Draven

    Hello. Has anyone heard of Goshin Jutsu Karate?:)
     
  2. Jim

    Jim New Member

    No, care to elaborate?
     
  3. BlueDragon1981

    BlueDragon1981 In the House of Draven

    The full name of the style I'm in is Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo. Its origins have been bashed and some consider the founder bogus. I don't agree with them because the style speaks for itself and is well rounded and has many original (but modefied moves) from other arts. So he ovouisly studied under someone. Now that we got that out of the way..

    The art is a hybrid. It has shotokan, kicks for tae kwon do, and aiki -jitsu techniques. We have a total of 16 katas up to black belt and more after black. We also have to do what we call waza. Prearranged self defence. I never counted but I beleive there is over 100 individual techniques you must know for black belt. Plus many more little things, preasure points etc....
     
  4. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    16 kata before black belt? That sounds rather a lot.

    As for the style. There are many many modern eclectic martial arts. They range from excellent to excrement, with every possible shade in between. So I wouldn't let the history of the style worry you too much. Rather, be concerned about the system is fit for its intended purpose (self-defence, self-development, fitness, sport, or some combination of these).

    I would be a little concerned though if the founder was deliberately circumspect or even deceitful about its origins.

    Mike
     
  5. BlueDragon1981

    BlueDragon1981 In the House of Draven

    Oh the Grand Master said where he trained. He was never mysterious about it. After he died a man who had a falling out with him started trying to discredit the style. It doesn't bother me. I like it anyway because even with the sole called shadiness it is a very good well rounded art.
     
  6. kensai

    kensai New Member

    Well, Goshin Jutsu is Japanese for self defence. So I guess its a more self defence orintated karate system?
     
  7. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Not necessarily, the name doesn't always reflect the reality of how the system is made up.

    Mike
     
  8. BlueDragon1981

    BlueDragon1981 In the House of Draven

    It is based around Self Defence. It has kata and many other traditional thing to.
     
  9. Ken Allgeier

    Ken Allgeier New Member

    If anyone is interested in learning the truth about Jerry Durant and his ‘ goshin jutsu’ also known as “ goshin jutsu kyo jujo " (correct Japanese is goshin jutsu kyoju jo ), you can go to these post on E-Budo.com.







    Title : Examining goshin jutsu ; Historicity:Evidence Demand a verdict
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=9092

    Title : goshin
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=8745

    Title : History of goshin jutsu
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=1388

    Title : Royal Martial Arts and goshin jutsu.
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=3805

    Title :

    " goshindo" Karate Legitimacy ?
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=3805

    Title :

    " goshin jutsu video club."
    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=9691

    Title:
    " Murakami, Jerry Durant and Aiki Jutsu"

    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=1245

    http://www.karateforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3563



    " I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.I believe
    it is better to be free than be a slave.And I believe it is better to
    know than be ignorant." H.L. Mencken


    " Anyone who refers to himself as a master or allows himself to be referred to as a master isn't."

    Yukiyoshi Takamura,
    Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai

    It has been prove categorical that Jerry Durant was a fake and a pathological liar, and that his organization goshin jutsu is a cult -like group



    1. Was Mr. Durant born in Japan and/or was he half-Japanese?

    Answer: No. Mr. Durant was born in Utica, NY in 1922 to American
    parents.


    2. Did Mr. Durant study karate in Japan and bring the style Goshin Jutsu to the US from Japan?

    Answer: No, in fact there is no evidence that Mr. Durant was ever in Japan at any time during his life.


    3. Did Mr. Durant learn the style in Japan from a "samurai prince"?

    Answer: No. See answer to question #2. Also, there is no such thing as a"samurai prince". The Samurai were extinct as a class in Japan long before Mr. Durant made his claims, and besides, they don't have "Princes". The Samurai were warriors, not royalty.


    4. Where, when, from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant receive his shodan?

    Answer: Mr. Durant never earned any dan ranking in any form of
    Traditional karate. Evidence indicates that Mr. Durant promoted himself to shodan in the early 1960's in Erie, PA.


    5. Is Goshin Jutsu a classical form of traditional Japanese karate?

    Answer: No. It is a completely fabricated style which was made up by Mr. Durant using a few karate books as reference.


    6. Are the Goshin katas such as Ichi Bando, Yonaka, Kishu, etc.
    classical katas with Japanese/ Samurai roots?

    Answer: No. Mr. Durant made the katas up himself, which is why no one from legitimate karate styles has ever heard of them.


    7. Are promotions in Goshin Jutsu handled in the traditional manner of classical Japanese karate?

    Answer: No. Since the style is made-up, it has no ties to any legitimate karate associations which issue rank. Thus, in Goshin, instructors either promote themselves or each other to high rank, and in some cases,are even promoted by their own students.


    8. Is the Japanese terminology used by Goshin Jutsu/Goshin Do correct?

    Answer: No. Instructors of the style use and pronounce many of the common terms improperly, and also have made-up many phrases without regard to their actual Japanese meaning. For instance, Mr. Durant called himself "Kyoto", telling his students it meant "great teacher".In Japan the term actually means "assistant principal of a public school". It is obvious that Mr. Durant could not speak or understand Japanese and that the terms he did use were probably copied out of books. Similarly, the kanji Mr. Durant printed on promotional certificates has been studied and found to be gibberish, probably copied
    sloppily from books.


    9. Was the style handed down by Chinese bandits, ninjas or samurai?

    Answer. No. See questions 1-6.


    10. Is the style considered in present day to be a legitimate form of Japanese karate:

    Answer: No. Few legitimate karate organizations have even heard of Goshin Jutsu. It is generally understood to be a made-up style pretending to be legitimate.




    Ken Allgeier
    Erie PA, USA
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2003
  10. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    *Sigh

    Got an axe to grind have we?

    This is a discussion forum not a political soap box.

    :woo:
     
  11. Cain

    Cain New Member

    LOL!!! :D

    Ditto!

    |Cain|
     
  12. Ken Allgeier

    Ken Allgeier New Member

    Will the truth set you free?

    " No axe to grind here" I am simply presenting the facts and evidence, so each indivdual can determine what is the truth.I just believe in honesty and standards( always tell the truth)isn't that what we teach our children.
     
  13. BlueDragon1981

    BlueDragon1981 In the House of Draven

    I don't care about the legitimacy of the art. The art is an affective one so why instead of arguing about Durant, can't you actually admit the art has evolved into a legitimate art even if you don't like the founder.

    Has anyone who is complaining about Durant stepped into the dojo lately. It truely has become a very good art.

    What do you all say about Joe Brague, Russ Capela, and others like James Fife. Even seen them do any of the art. They learned from Durant.

    Like I said their are many questions on many arts. Who knows....not you not I. The ones who do are passed on and leave it at that. The art has grown into a good art regardless of what you think of the founder.

    And I do think you have an axe to grind....no further comments
     
  14. Ken Allgeier

    Ken Allgeier New Member

    Another opinion

    Subject: RE: goshin tape
    Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 18:33:15 -0600
    From: Don Cunningham <budokai@concentric.net>
    To: "'Hatsuun Jindo'" <bushido@velocity.net>

    Hi Ken,

    Sorry I haven't gotten back to you. I have viewed most of the tape and reviewed the documents you sent. (I couldn't stand to watch too much at a time.)

    This was almost too unbelievable. It was like a comedy skit about martial arts. I had to keep reminding myself that some people have taken this stuff seriously. I can't begin to understand the mentality of those who did, butI guess some people will see whatever they want instead of what is so obviously a fraud.

    I checked the documents and Guy Power's comments. My own Japanese reading skills are rather limited, but what I did understand agrees completely with Mr. Power's observations. I must therefore conclude that Mr. Power's other comments are accurate as well. While it has little to do with the Japanese
    language issues, the one thing that really struck me was just how tacky and cheap the certificates looked. I have seen any number of Japanese certificates, from martial arts rankings to sushi chef licenses, both hand done on individual basis to those pre-printed in mass quantities. Although I realize this is a subjective judgment, the Japanese certificates all reflected a certain quality image which is definitely lacking in those
    produced by Durant. How would anyone believe in such junk as these hand drawn and photocopied rank certificates? They look like something a child might have produced rather than any rank certificate I've ever seen before.

    As for the videotape, the deragatory remarks made by Durant during the demonstration in the shopping mall certainly present a negative image. His need to constantly draw attention to his self-imposed status indicates an immaturity that I found quite distasteful. I thought he was supposed to be
    some sort of grandmaster? I have never seen any Japanese budoka of his age and position act in such an outrageous and vain manner. Why would anyone follow someone who behaves as such a clown is beyond my comprehension.

    As for the actual demonstrations, I have very little knowledge of atemi waza, since my background is mainly judo. However, the obsession with touching/striking other men's genitals seemed a bit strange to me.Furthermore, the actual striking techniques seemed mostly impractical and not very effective. I used to box for awhile when I was in the military.Although I never went beyond novice standing, I think I could easily drop
    anyone who used such bizarre hand strikes as witnessed on the tape. The flash of hands around the face and upper body are just crazy. They are completely open to a direct right or left straight jab. If anyone who knows the least bit of boxing encountered something as stupid as this, they could drop them like a sack of potatoes with one punch to the jaw or nose.

    As for the other techniques, one thing which clearly indicates Durant has never trained in Japan is the way they went to seiza. It would be just as strange in our culture as if someone constantly offered their left hand for a handshake or a career military person used his left hand to salute
    the flag. It just isn't done. Yet, Durant and his students consistently used the wrong sequence.

    I don't know where they got the habit for the little right leg stomp each time they prepared to bow, but this is also something that is not done in Japanese culture or budo. I can only assume they have adopted this from some Western interpretation of martial arts etiquette. Again, this indicates the lack of any formal training in Japan. I also noticed that
    Durant and some of his senior students seemed to confuse Okinawan forms and Japanese martial arts in their descriptions and presentations. This is not something one would expect from someone who trained in Japanese karate, but indicates a blending of techniques from various sources with little or no
    understanding of the culture.

    I found the class or seminar instruction was the most revealing regarding Durant's complete lack of any martial arts experience. First, he was wearing the obi on his kimono with a knot only used by women. Because of the poor video quality, I couldn't be sure, but it also appeared to be a woman's obi. Furthermore, his kimono was worn with right over left, something which is only done on corpses in Japan.

    His description of grappling and throwing techniques was absolutely ridiculous. He never referenced or used any kuzushi (off-balancing), an aspect considered absolutely critical in all major styles of Japanese jujutsu and judo. I've heard others state that Durant's techniques were effective, but I can not believe this is possible after watching his teaching techniques. As a judoka, I can state without any doubt that a throw which does not first utilize kuzushi will not be effective without a extremely cooperative uke or partner. Anyone who claims these techniques
    worked in actual encounters has absolutely no credability, in my opinion,since it is next to impossible to throw a resisting opponent without first setting them up with kuzushi.

    Another aspect which I found disturbing was the lack of any emphasis on ukemi. I have never seen any Japanese martial art utilizing throws which does not first teach proper ukemi for practice. A Japanese budoka would be ashamed to present techniques in which the uke didn't utilize good ukemi
    when receiving the technique. In each throw practiced during the hands-on seminar, Durant's students never once used any ukemi when falling or accepting the techniques. Even more important, Durant never once discussed
    the importance of ukemi or took any notice of how poorly the uke falls when the technique is applied, which indicates his lack of experience or concern about safety during practice.

    Overall, I am surprised that anyone with the least bit of experience in any real martial arts style would believe this guy is anything but a complete fraud and egomaniac. Even without the hillbilly accent and manners, I would have trouble accepting something as ridiculous as shown on this videotape.
    That many apparently did respect and believe in this idiot is very
    frightening to me. Of course, the ones shown as his senior students and followers on this tape didn't seem to have much common sense or education in the first place. I guess it is conceivable that they may have been mislead without anything legitimate to compare it to. In this case,ignorance may be an temporary excuse, but to maintain belief in this
    "system" in light of so many other factors is just plain stupidity.



    I hope my comments are what you're looking for here. I can expand on anything with specific references if you want. I didn't take notes when I watched the tape, mainly because I was shocked to see something so blantantly ridiculous after hearing about how realistic his act had been. I surmised he has no real background from many other factors, but I had never actually witnessed his techniques or teaching methods. With so many ready to defend his credability, though, I expected to see something a bit more polished and potentially realistic. This tape was a real eye-opener. I just sat in shock, mouth full open, to see such nonsense presented with any seriousness on the part of the participants. I would have been ashamed to be associated with a group that was willing to have put on such a weak show
    as a public demonstration. If I had, I would change my name and move to another city, afraid of being recognized as a former follower of such a dubious personality.

    Sincerely,

    Don

    Don Cunningham
    www.eBudokai.com
    www.eBudostore.com
    budokai@concentric.net


    Subject: Goshin Jutsu
    Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:12:19 -0700
    From: David Chambers <dragon@dragon-tsunami.org>
    To: bushido@velocity.net

    Dear Mr. Allgeier,

    Thank you very much for the documentation and the video.

    I think that this is the worst nonsense that I have seen in 30 years. It's absolute nonsense, and difficult to belief that even they took it seriously—assuming they did. It's so bad that I really don't want to comment on it.



    Thank you again for the material. By cooperating we can, hopefully, root out this sort of thing.

    Thanks & regards


    Subject: Re: NEW INFORMATION !
    Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 19:49:19 -0700
    From: Guy Power <gpower@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
    To: Hatsuun Jindo <bushido@velocity.net>

    Hello Ken,



    I showed the Durant tape to one of Mr. Church's old
    students (he has been teaching jujutsu for many years)...he couldn't believe the waza performed, and even was shocked at Mr. Durant's conduct at the Texas Mall demonstration. The karate waza were terrible -- I recognized a variation of one of the Heian/Pinan kata -- I haven't done any in 25 years and still could do better, and be closer to the original kata.

    Well, I'll go for now.

    Regards,
    Guy

    Guy H. Power
    Administrative Officer
    Neuro Engineering Laboratory
    NASA Ames Research Center


    Bluedragon


    " What do you all say about Joe Brague, Russ Capela, and others like James Fife. Even seen them do any of the art. They learned from Durant."


    If you would read my reasearch and the posts on E-Budo.com.You would have known that I was once ( unfortunately)a student of Jerry Durant and I have see all the indivduals you have stated and more and I am not impressed.

    I have been vary luck in the fact that I have been able to learn REAL KARATE and BUDO from Okinawan and Japanese teachers and their and 1st and 2ed generation students( non-asian).Whom far outclass anyone conected to Jerry Durant.

    Again I invite you to the local YMCA so I can explain and demostrate( in a civil and friendly manner) why you are not training in Karatedo.If goshin jutsu kyo juju is so great, then you should have nothing to fear.



    Ken
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2003
  15. thiaboxr2

    thiaboxr2 New Member

    If you like your art, fine, study it. Too much politics in this thread concerning "truth" or "lies". Its what YOU make of it that should matter. Not what others think about it.
     
  16. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Nver said better thaiboxr ;)

    Sorry, but the whole thread seems like a political soap box :)

    |Cain|
     
  17. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    I read Mr Allgeier's posts on E-Budo previously. IMHO-that's a better place for them.
     
  18. Jim

    Jim New Member

    fight, fight, fight, fight... or better yet, get another room...
     
  19. BlueDragon1981

    BlueDragon1981 In the House of Draven

    I agree. I like the art so I do not care what Ken says about it. He can hold whatever opinion he wants about me. I have seen enough schools to know that he just has a grudge. I am not purely goshin. I have seen a lot of crap schools in Erie and surrounding areas. So think what you want about the art and its people. Because by judging everyone in the art and saying it is crap shows who you really are.

    I have learned to control many things from studing the art. I gained confidence and many other aspects that have helped me in my life. So that should speak for itself. The art is not bogus. I don't care if you have a problem with Durant the art has taught me alot, and that is what it is ment for. If you didn't go around forum to forum stating your politics maybe I would believe something you said but it just seems you have a axe to grind. ....no further comments will be posted by me on this subject. Other than what the art has taught me and what I like and dislike about it. The way it should be not politics and fighting.:woo:
     
  20. JAMJTX

    JAMJTX Valued Member

    A bunch of fakes and phonies

    If you like this brand of inferior martial art, that is fine. Personally I think it is a joke.
    The problem here is that Durant has forged the signature of one of my teachers on a phony certificate. He used these made up stories to promote think junk as legitimate Japanese Budo.
    All of his stories have proven to be lies, but his followers continue to spread this nonsense.
    If they want to make claims, then they should show proof. Instead, when thier claims are challenged, they say things like "it doesn't matter if the art works" Or "your just playing politics".
    If it is not important, then why make the claims.
    Some of the facts are:
    Durant (and now his followers) say that Durant trained at the Osaka Kodokan in the 1930's - Fact - this branch did not exist then and there is no record of this man at the Kodokan.
    Durant and his followers also claim he had Dan ranking in Aikido. This also is not true.
    It is claimed that Durant trained with Shogo Kuniba and was a representive of the Seishin Kai 1958-59. There is no record of Durant with the Seishin Kai. Plus the Seishin Kai had no U.S. branch until 1964. Richard Baillargeon - the first American to receive Dan ranking in the Seishin Kai was granted permission to start a U.S. branch in 1964. He was also the first American Shihan in Seishin Kai. Durant was never affiliated in any way with the Seishin Kai, Shogo Kuniba or Richard Baillargeon.

    Every single claim made by the current leadership of this "goshin jutsu" organization has proven to be a lie.

    I peronslly feel that is is wrong to take money from people under false pretenses.
     
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