Many of us learn martial arts for self defence against violent, aggressive people in whatever shape or form they may present themselves; the rude boys who want to start fights for no reason, the macho idiot in the pub who wants a pop because he reckons you looked at him funny, the school bully, or perhaps the mugger. It is hoped that, with the superior fighting skills we learn, we'll be able to fend off the hordes of thugs just waiting to stove our heads in. However, the last couple of years have been a bit of an eye-opener for me on this issue, especially last year. Two of my mates have been attacked on a few occasions over the course of the year, and each time they got put to work, despite being tall, very strong, and reasonably skilled in martial arts. The reason they lost isn't because they lacked skill, or because they weren't strong; it was because the guys who attacked them were playing by different rules. As responsible martial artists, when we use our skills (presuming we have them) we have many issues to take into account. If we use too much force, we may be prosecuted. It may look like we started it and get us into trouble that way. Our attackers could be carrying weapons, or they could attack us in such vast numbers that we don't stand a chance (like the rude boys who took out my mates). If we carry weapons of our own, again that puts us in danger of prosecution. We also have to try and avoid a confrontation in the first place by trying to avoid dodgy areas etc. The reason we have these concerns is because life is important to us - we don't want to hurt people unnecessarily, we are aware that we could bite off more than we could chew by fighting the wrong guy, and we have plans to do with families and careers that we don't want to ruin with a criminal record. But what about the thugs? They are completely brainless, hence they are thugs. They don't care about having a criminal record for violence or carrying a weapon, if anything it will just add to their reputation as a hard nut. They have no moral problem with using as much force or as many people as they feel like. They are at risk from the same things as we are, but unlike us, they don't care. This obviously won't help them in the long run as those who live by the sword die by the sword, but it presents a serious problem when you're trying to defend yourself against them. Are we automatically at a disadvantage against the thugs of the world because we're too responsible?
probably, unless you also know how to play it, and therein lies the problem i think. EDIT: my opinion on force is i will try to fight untill they can't fight anymore if i can, then if i can try to contact the police, but if they got weapons i'll try to go in for damage, try breaking weapon arms and stuff, then contact the cops, but if they injure/killl someone i will try for SERIOUS damage, effectively hospitalizing them, i don't think there's much to prevent me from trying that except unconsciousness as i regard life with the utmost importance, and IMO someone who tries or succeeds to take a life deserves to have every bone broken, but not killed, to live their lives with regret and suffering( REALLY ultimately completely corny i know, but it's how i really feel) may i propose that people post things they consider to be factors, based on experience so that those things may be taken into account, for example you're looking for info on thug tactics and someone tells you they can have guns, so you get ready to expect guns if something happens and you get stabbed and slashed with knives and stuff. so here people can post all they know about this so we compile sort of an ultimate warning guide against street thugs so things like that don't happen as much, what do you think? is it feasible or stupid?
I think we're definately at a disadvantage, because people like us, are not insane/morons, so like you say, we care about certain things. The best thing to do to get out of the situation I think, is to put yourself on their level, do whatever it takes to keep yourself safe (firstly, running away would be the safest bet). If you get cornered, you have to be willing to use full force, because worrying about consequences can get you killed. Having said that, it is easier said than done, and we probably will have to face the law afterwards, but most of the time, the thugs don't. We seem to live in a society where the law doesn't favour the victim, which is pretty insane, but what can we do?
Couldn't have said it better. Self defence is about survival of the fitest. You HAVE to to be the fitest, or you can just kiss your ass goodbye. It's as simple as that. Kill or be killed. It's not a rational thing, but an animal instinct. That's why rational people are in disadvantage, and will allways be.
The way I see it, when someone threatens you with bodily harm, their safety is no longer your concern. My karate instructor is a police officer, and he's been a good resource on this kind of thing. Essentially, his philosophy towards self-defense boils down to "You have the legal and moral right to defend yourself." I think a lot of people are afraid of being prosecuted for "excessive force," but don't really know what "excessive force" is. Essentially, as long as you don't hit someone when they're down or incapacitated, you should be safe legally. The cops might talk tough with you to get the story straight, but you shouldn't worry about being prosecuted for doing what you have to do to keep your life safe.
To be totally honest, I think if someone attacks you and you're thinking "oooh I'd better not use that strike/armbar/neck lock in case I get prosectued" there is something very wrong with you. Worry about the legal aspects before the fight starts (i.e. make sure you are not the one starting it) and after you've put the guy down (no excessive force). In between, your life is in danger for christ's sake, don't think about anything but putting the guy out of your misery. You think your loved ones will be really proud that you showed 'responsiblity' and held back as they stand crying by your grave?
I entirely agree, but it's an issue that's often raised and something that does legitimately concern martial artists, though not necessarily at the time.
Another point is if your an instructor and a student is attacked and hurts someone with something you show them. I for one will show techniques and discuss options that are able to cause damage to an attacker within a short space of time. For self defence there are a few basics I look to cover as soon as possible Jab Cross Low Leg Kick Clinch to tie up arms Standing take down Basic ground control and submissions Basic knife and Blunt weapons Sniper moments (distractions) Single out the multi opponents The rest is the polishing off, there is little else needed
You have to essentially, fight evil with evil. To literally survive, you're gonna need to fight back, and hard. I cannot really expain it in words, as I'm not great at describing moral issues, but if people are attacking you with the intent to harm you, you must fight back. You cannot possibly stave off an assault that is determined to break you, unless your skill far surpasses the opponent (this is almost never going to happen). Most "hard nuts" know what they're doing; they may not do it cleanly, but they know how to hurt you. Therefore, they will keep coming at you until you get tired. I know when I've been faced with a self-defense situation, I try to diffuse it early; but once the fists start flying, I don't hesitate to do what is necessary to get the hell out of there. I can and will do low kicks, knee smashes, throat chokes, armbars, ground fighting techniques, hard takedown maneuvers, and facial strikes to defend myself, even if that means attacking back. I won't continue the assault, though, and I think that is a major part in legal cases; did you continue the assault after an opportunity to escape had arisen, or did you just fight back until you were able to get away?
I guess all my "idiotc" talk finally made it through. Thats the point ive been trying to make for a long time. Unless you are prepared to be able to think outside the box, and do what you have to do to survive, it doesnt matter your rank, size, speed, or endurance. If you dont have the "warrior mindset" then you might as well just curl up in the fetal position. I dont know if you guys on the other side of the lake have heard about the recent shooting in Northern USA, but basically a psycho kid went to school and started shooting people. He set his aim to 2 girls and a 15 your old kid stood up and grabbed a pencil, slamming it into the side of his ribs. The kid got shot in the face, he didnt die, and he did saved these 2 girls as well. I know people who are 30 years old who wouldnt do something like that. And he thought to use his pencil as a weapon, its not like he had a knife on him. You have to strive for this "warrior-mindset". I dont have it, i'd cry like a little girl probably, but its one of my goals, its one of the things i want to attain. That is something I think alot of MArtists are missing. This goal to achieve a survival mindset, face death, and truely understand their life, and whats really important to them.
prosecution dosen't cross my mind at all because i will never start the fight but i'll sure as hell end it anyway i can if wosrt comes to worst than i pray the system works and the self-defense is in my favor!!!
yeah i heard about that too, and props to that kid for thinking outside the box and taking the initative to DO something as opposed to wait for the kid to get tired of waiting and pop one into every kid in the class.
Yes Siphus, it was all to do with cliches about the warrior mindset and nothing to do with my life experience. I never pretended there weren't factors in self defence other than being able to fight and I've said this many times, if you want to start this debate again take it somewhere else. The kid was a hero, there's no denying that. But that's not what this thread is about. The question is, are responsible people at a disadvantage?
Funny as the kid was apparently wearing a bullet proof vest so the reports here said. Be interested to see which is right.
I have to say it, but yes, responsible people are at a disadvantage. Like my other post, if you are not going to fight back with all your heart, you cannot win. I honestly couldn't care less if I go to jail, as long as I'm still alive. I don't think many people would convict someone for breaking the attacker's ribs if he was forced to. Again, there are those exceptions. But mostly, if someone's got me in a bearhug and is about to squeeze the air from me, I'm going to do whatever it takes, like biting his trapezious tendon to loosen his grip, kneeing him in the nuts, and then driving his face into sharp glass (assuming the environment), if that's what it takes for me to live.
Responsible? Are you kidding me? I'm only responsible for myself. When it comes down to it, the excessive force theory goes out the window. If some cat wants to act hard and tries something funny he's a dead sommomabitch. For example, if someone happens to pull a knife on me while I'm carrying a gun, I'd put 3 in his chest. Same goes for a baseball bat or metal pipe. However, I don't walk around with a gun, and knives are illegal to carry, hence, one must just stay away and run like hell. The point is I believe you should use whatever means available to defend yourself. Even if it means destroying some dudes. And yes non thugs are at a disadvantage. OBVIOUSLY. Because you're not looking for a fight. Someone who's looking for a fight will be carrying something on him. A smart "rational" person who is prepared for thugs will be carrying a licensed firearm. Unless of course they live in the UK. Then they're screwed.
I dont think responsible people are at a disadvantage. If you train without the thought of "control" and instantly do your super 540 death kick to a guy, then i GUESS you should get in trouble. But its up to the 'victim' to assess the situation and do what is right. As for the pencil attack, more information can be found here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=609993
hehe im goign to save this to my computer as an argument icase i end up in court oneday, nicely worded
Right. Then you obviously haven't been listening properly beforehand because I've already said this many times. The victim can't just choose what to do all the time. Many martial artists wrongly assume that you can *always* escape from a violent confrontation or, when it happens, use a simple one-hit counterattack to end it without too much harm being caused. It is ultimately down to the attacker whether you get attacked or not because you can't control his actions. The point is, things like multiple attackers for backup, using weapons and getting into trouble with the law are things that we often aren't prepared to do, whereas a thug who doesn't care will do whatever he wants. My friends were at a disadvantage when they were attacked, because unlike their attackers, they don't carry weapons, and they don't wander around with a huge backup crew so that they can safely start on someone. EDIT: I think people are focussing too much on my example of using excessive force and missing the actual point I was making about thugs being prepared to do things we aren't, like carry weapons. Excessive force isn't something that bothers me much (better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6), it was merely one of many examples of concerns that many martial artists have that thugs don't.
