good taijutsu bad taijutsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Nick Mandilas, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    I was having a think about one of the threads here on MAP as I was eating my lunch that had a few budo taijutsu training videos in it and how many people, (iincluding myself) commented on bad/good taijutsu.
    And it got me thinking.

    On Monday morning at my BJJ class I was pinned by a side control and as I managed to sweep my opponent I notice his arm come up for a minute and there like a beacon I saw an oni kudaki waiting for to just reach out and apply it! It was like slow motion! And suddenly it was on and my opponent was tapping. One of the other guys from my BJK dojo that trains with me was like "can't believe you got that from that angle!" (I couldn't either to be honest LOL) It may not have looked pretty. But it was there. And it worked.

    So when we say "that person has bad taijutsu" based on a video of them doing set kata with a compliant partner, do we really know that their taijutsu is bad, or do we only know that their form is bad? Same goes for when we say that a person has good taijutsu.

    By this, what I mean is what constitutes good/bad taijutsu in different people's mind? Is it just good movement? Is it just form? Is it applicable ability?

    If we have a practitioner that looks polished to a mirror finish when he is doing set kata with a compliant partner, but we don't really know if he can apply techniques in real life situations against aggressive attackers. Is his taijutsu "good"

    If we have a practitioner that doesn't have his back at the right angle, or his feet aren't well spaced or whatever when he is doing set kata with a compliant partner, but he has the ability to apply techniques in real life situations against aggressive attackers. Is his taijutsu "bad"

    I'd love to hear peoples (mature, well-constructed) thoughts on this.
    Cheers
    Nick
     
  2. french fri25

    french fri25 Valued Member

    Not a taijutsu practitioner but as far as my knowledge goes I was under the impression that taijutsu was all about using anything necessary to win. Therefore whatever technique you performed that allowed you to submit your opponent must be an example of good taijutsu. It would sound pretty ridiculous to me to say that a technique that was applied successfully could possibly be considered "bad" taijutsu. Once again, I'm not a taijutsu practitioner, just my 2 cents.
     
  3. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    All three of them? I thought it goes without saying?

    Probably, but he can handle himself. Good for him. Thing is, I'm not interested.

    Being able to fight does not equal being good at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I don't mean to sound irritated, but I thought we've been over this before.
     
  4. garth

    garth Valued Member

    kagete posted

    No but being good at Bujinkan budo Taijutsu should mean your able to fight.
     
  5. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    I don't think anyone would dispute that. Otherwise it'd be pretty difficult to say one is good at it.
     
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Big Will I agree

    But going back to the point that Rubber Tanto posted and what you say...

    If people who do Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu should be able to fight, yet we are only judging people on what we see on a youtube video, then it cannot follow that just because a person shows what we agree to be good taijutsu, that that person is necesarily a good fighter.

    In other words good form does not equal combat ability.

    And whilst I agree that having good taijutsu is a prerequisite to the martial art, the question is "should it then become the bench mark by which we judge a persons ability by", or should we have another bench mark i.e. how well they use the taijutsu under real combat situations (or maybe both)

    Now I absolutely appreciate that most people are never going to enter into a real combat situation, and more over its probably not going to appear on youtube for us to judge it by, however just saying that a person that has good form equals someone who is good in a fight is a false assumption.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  7. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    We could always go back to the way it was in the old days; last man standing.

    Usually that last man passed on his principles to his students by way of form, so form should be a big determining factor on whether or not someone will survive a combat situation similar to those for which this method of fighting is designed.

    Garth, is right though. We aren't to get enough real footage of someone surviving combat to determine if they are good or not.

    If you have good form/technique you have a better chance of surviving a real situation and being considered 'good'.
     
  8. KawasakiNinja

    KawasakiNinja Valued Member

    Adam Mitchel
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9PZLFldMjg&t=1m20s"]YouTube - Jinenkan Dojo, Taijutsu Fundamentals 1[/ame]


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUu_T0rKlnA&feature=related"]YouTube - Ninjutsu Soke Toshitsugu Takamatsu Teaches Techniques XI[/ame]

    Adam has been cited as a having "very good" taijutsu. Very clean, crisp and excellently executed kata. Is he any good in a brawl?

    Takamatsu was said to be "good in brawl". But he doesn't move like Adam.

    Who is better?
    Who would you want to be your teacher?

    I wonder if that is a definition of "having good taijutsu", someone who you want to and can, learn from.

    From Nick's post, he "saw" (or felt, or even constructed) an opportunity to apply oni-kudaki. And was able to execute it. We all know that oni-kudaki is a tricky beast to get right and it can go wrong in many varied and surprising ways. I'm sure Nick was able adjust his weight distribution (footwork), judge his timing (surprise), and apply the technique without the "uke" being alert to his intent (feel and balance).

    And if it had gone wrong, I'm sure Nick would have adapted (perserverance) and flowed into a different technique (henka) quite seamlessly.

    That is good taijutsu, good "budo", from good solid training, backed up with practice. Without the understanding of Distance, Footwork, Balance and the use of Intent and Feeling then it would not have worked, and Nick would not of used it as an example.
     
  9. paulinho

    paulinho Valued Member

    I think good taijutsu means showing an understanding of the principles of balance and structure of your body, how to avoid the structure being broken and in turn how your opponents structure can be broken. How to control your opponent through distance and movement. Back that up with a knowledge of technique then I think you have good taijutsu.

    I’m not sure a video really allows you to judge these things that well to be honest as good taijutsu to me means that you understand why you are doing something not just how to follow a routine and make it aesthetically pleasing.

    I guess the big question is whether good taijutsu is about form/technique or survival
     
  10. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Right, Doofy the loser troll has been banned. Thank you for not encouraging the troll and just reporting the posts. I'm pretty sure this loser has posted here under a number of other usernames in the past and each and every time has been banned. And Doofy (or whatever your name is or will be in the future), grow up, leave the computer and you parent's basement and go and get a life and some proper martial arts training! You will never be welcome on MAP with you pathetic attempts at trolling!
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  11. garth

    garth Valued Member

    damn Frodocious you must have been typing as I was.

    we must have a psychic link:hat:
     
  12. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Nick,
    I think we will see the usual divides come into play very soon.People who look to "fighting"as their reason for doing martial arts will agree that it is not so important to have ,what is regarded as ,good movement.
    People who exert much effort in attaining "good movement ,will dismiss the idea.
    Twelve years ago.I reached the conclusion that "good movement " was of little use,relatively,in wining a fight.
    I believe the most important factors,or one of at least,in surviving a violent encounter ,is seeing your own mistakes before your opponents can.Of course if your form and technique are good .then mistakes will be less.And so round and round we go.
    Good luck with keeping this thread open.
     
  13. Magnanimity

    Magnanimity Valued Member

    In my opinion, If I'm searching for a teacher I would rather have someone with really good and crisp technique than someone with sloppy technique and an impressive fighting record.

    My opinion doesn't really matter that much, but I believe that the ability to learn techniques and principles correctly and pass them on to others is of outmost importance for a koryu school or an organisation like the Bujinkan.
     
  14. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    For me, I like the middle ground. I don't want to just be a brawler and I don't want to get so caught up in the form that I lose sight of the ability.

    In my time in this style, I've met guys that looked just okay at first glance but surprisingly when push came to shove could apply solid techniques on a fully resistant person as if it was childs play... and others that looked about as sparkly as a fresh polished diamond during training yet couldn't use what they new against resistance to save themselves.
     
  15. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Here is the problem ,as I see it.
    How can you say you are liable to be good in a fight ,if you have not,and perhaps never will ,be in one?
    This was not the case in the old days.Takamatsu could"claim" his "taijutsu was effective because he had proven to himself that it was.Can the likes of Kacem Zoughari make that claim? I doubt it,although I cant say for sure.
    I don't have a problem with people who cant fight ,wont fight,or have not fought being regarded as excellent in a martial art,whichever art ,as long as the "unproven" ones don't claim to know how it can be applied in a real situation.
    Equally,people who don't know the intricacies of an art should not claim to teach or practice that art in its pure form.
     
  16. KawasakiNinja

    KawasakiNinja Valued Member

    Good point George.

    (Yet, trying to keep this thread from tumbling into the same crevasse that most of these threads turn into)

    I was told something the other day... (and I hope I can para-phrase accurately)


    So, is "good taijutsu" exactly that, a strong foundation in the techniques that we are taught.

    Is good "budo" the fight that you have, how you implement the techniques when you need to. Is it how effective you want to be.

    Is good "Bujinkan (taijutsu)" therefore how you best implement Hatsumi sensei's interpretation of his schools. Is it what makes the Bujinkan "oni kudaki" different from a similar looking BJJ / Akido / Karate versions of the same (arm lock style) techniques.


    But how can we measure and quantify it?


    Example:
    When I saw the first video in the 'me training' http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99314 thread, I didn't agree with the "crappy taijutsu" comment that was posted later. Reviewing the video closely, I could micro-criticise some minor points, and it maybe wasn't the very best taijutsu I've seen, but it was unfair to call it "crappy".

    Unless someone can point out a significant technical / technique flaw to me?
     
  17. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I don't mean to downplay your judgement capabilities, but something tells me that not all people woud agree with your assessment of how good they looked.
     
  18. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Guy and George both raise solid points. Thank you for keeping it civil. It's much appreciated!

    I agree that there were issues. The timing was out in many places. Footwork was also shaky here and there and and distance could also be improved. But this is sometimes the issue with kata also...as like it or not it is scripted.

    You can get two people that are great dancers and put them together to perform a scripted routine and things may not look 100% that does not make them bad dancers though.

    Same here. Who knows...maybe in a real life situation, the footwork, distance and timing would come natural...maybe it would all fall apart. It's just hard to tell from that clip.

    The believe me, I am not making this as some justification for ALL clips...there are many out there that just make me shudder!
     
  19. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Guy,unfortunately your balanced and reasonable outlook is what is very often missing on this forum.
    To me "good taijutsu"is anything that works in a fight.Yet to others this is a stupid view.
     
  20. Magnanimity

    Magnanimity Valued Member

    Since this thing is so old it is important to mantain it and pass it on coming generations, that's why I think of "good taijutsu" as good technique.

    Having an experienced teacher is really good, but if we are not sparring during class I don't really know how much I can benefit from that experience. Talking about it is one thing, trying and really understanding as another. Therefore I would prefer crisp technique in a Bujinkan teacher, just as long as lack of experience doesn't make his taijutsu watered down.

    Some might want a package deal, but I find it pretty hard to find so I prefer to just crosstrain, like you seem to do. You can try almost everything you learn against people who are good enough to expose your faults etc.
     

Share This Page