Good Muay Boran resources?

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by Bronze Statue, Jun 11, 2007.

  1. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    What are good resources on muay boran, or on other forms of muay that still have their own distinctive style?

    Are there any DVDs or the like on muay boran or on existing muay methods (chaiya, etc.)?
     
  2. rsobrien

    rsobrien Valued Member

    Actually, I'd be interested in this too. The only mention I have ever heard of Muay Boran is on the internet and from Tony Jaa. Honestly, I don't think it really exists outside of Ong Bak.
     
  3. Kraken

    Kraken Valued Member

    Yes muay boran does exist , Its like the ''battlefield'' version of Muay Thai, as Muay Thai is a sport it has rules and such , muay boran is more focused on killing stuff .......stuff you see on ong bak is heavily watered down tony jaa mixes in tae kwon do and some capoeria aswell
     
  4. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    One of the very best sources for AUTHENTIC "MuayBoran" is Colonel Amnat Pooksrisuk. He has a number of instructional DVD's out....

    http://ancientmuay.com/
    http://bareknucklemuay.com/

    There is also some stuff he has released in Thailand through the Ministry of Education.

    There are other sources for MuayBoran, of course, but the authenticity of what is being taught is often suspect. Not that the moves themselves are wrong, but the fact is that the Colonel understands the context and framework in which these moves were used.... He knows how to teach them from the ground up, as opposed to simply teaching you execute a really cool looking technique with no additional information to base it on.... such as "When do I use this?".... or "How would I set this up?"..... or even "Why was this technique used rather than something else?"
     
  5. rsobrien

    rsobrien Valued Member

    So no one knows of any manuscripts or manuals? Something similar to what Western Reconstructionist Martial Arts use? Any original sources?

    No one has any source articles?

    Do not use the Burmese invasion as an excuse...

    Most of the weapons part of Thai Martial Arts I thinkcomes from Krabi-Krabong. Where does this Muay Boran thing come in? Again, the only mention I have heard of it is Tony Jaa and people on the internet wanting to find out where they can learn to do it.
     
  6. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the Colonel is the only source of this information. What I'm saying is that he is a reliable source of information.

    In many cases, there are those who still know parts of the old bareknuckle systems, but a lot of the knowledge is dying out. Has nothing to do with the Burmese invasion, and almost everything to do with the popularity of sport MuayThai. The modern sport MuayThai has streamlined the MuayThai techniques and training methods to such an extent that much of the knowledge of the old systems is simply being forgotten.

    There are still some of the bareknuckle masters around, but fewer and fewer people are willing to learn the old systems and put themselves through the old style of training. Face it.... there just isn't any money in it. Why are you going to go through all the hard style training to learn bareknuckle MuayThai when you can train in the sport MuayThai and potentially earn a lot of money to support yourself and your family?
     
  7. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    http://khunkao.com/images/MuayThai-ebook.pdf

    Free MuayThai e-book. There are also many, many videos available online, such as on YouTube.... you just have to poke around a bit.

    Incidentally, Colonel Amnat was one of Tony Jaa's coaches....
     
  8. rsobrien

    rsobrien Valued Member

    That e-book is just a collection of internet sources compiled together. None of its even cited.

    Youtube videos don't count either.

    I was wondering if anyone has ever come up with a scholarly sources with citations or historical mauscripts that talk about the Ancient super Deadly Thai fighting of yesteryear.

    I am sorry but an "old Master" to me really doesn't qualify as a source. I am looking for historical documents with at least some attempt at verification. If you personally know the colonel, do you know where he learned his stuff and if he has any documents showing the historical context?

    I am not really interested in hearing "the sport is killing the art" stuff. I wanted to know if anyone has any verifiable sources of Muay Boran.

    The Burmese invaded the kingdom of siam in the mid 18th century (I am pretty sure) and have been told thats why not many historical documents survive form that era but what about say from 1800 onward?

    The closest thing I have ever seen to Battlefield Muay Thai is Krabi krabong.

    So far I think is Muay Boran thing is made up unless someone wants to correct me.
     
  9. KuKulzA

    KuKulzA Taiwanese independence!

    I know very little about this subject, but is it not possible that Muay Boran no longer exists for sure? I mean, with the rise of the so-called Muay Thai, a ring-version of old Thai martial art, isn't it very possible that most Thais went for the new money-making glory-getting ring martial sport based off their old Muay Boran rather than the old and seemingly outdated (compared to guns) martial art (as well as Krabi-Krabong)??
    I mean I doubt it is dead, it is possible that Muay Boran still exists in some rough rumble tumble rural villages in Thailand, but I doubt the mainstream has much info on it
     
  10. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    There are a few people out there who have been compiling the "scholarly work" that you are requesting, most notably Vincent Giordano who writes "The Vanishing Flame" newsletter. Incidentally, he's the one who introduced me to Colonel Amnat, who I believe is also compiling this "scholarly work" you'd like to see. Colonel Amnat is one of the four authors of the Thai manaul of war.

    One thing you have to understand about "MuayBoran" is that it is a very recent, generic term used to refer to the old styles of Muay. The closest English equivalent to "MuayBoran" is "Ancient Boxing". In many cases, the names of the old systems were taken from the names of the regions where they developed, as each area seemed to develop its own individual style. Some regions were predominantly using their fist, other areas preferred grappling methods, etc.... Some of the genuine names were "MuayChaiya" and "MuayKorat".

    My understanding is that MuayBoran is extremely intertwined with the battlefield art of "Krabi Krabong". In the view of many, there really is no distinction between "Krabi Krabong" and "MuayBoran", as it is merely the same art and the only distinguishing characteristic being whether you have a weapon in your hands or not.

    Unfortunately, as you have already pointed out, most of the historical text/records of Thailand (not just regarding MuayThai) were destroyed when the Burmese sacked the capital of Ayuttaya in the mid-18th century. There is the famous story of "Nai Khanom Thom", who was a captured Thai prisoner of war who earned his freedom by defeating 10 Burmese fighters in a row in front of their king back in 1774. I'm not sure what records have been kept since that time, but I'm sure they exist. Whether they exist as a manual of techniques, or just scholarly recordings of happenings and events that involve the use of the bareknuckle arts is a question I'm simply unable to answer.

    There are still surviving documents that show MuayThai techniques... here are a few I found that were reproduced on the internet:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I'll be the 1st to admit that I don't know the age of those images. Obviously what we see above are recreations of the originals, but if memory serves me correctly, the images above date back before the sack of Ayuttaya.
     
  11. rsobrien

    rsobrien Valued Member

    This actually clears up alot in my mind. I have looked into Muay Boran only as a passing interest via google and the local library and I could only find modern refernces to Muay Boran. It being a modern terminology to something we don't have a real name for makes more sense and the different regional styles sounds interesting.

    If you could, update this thread update this thread as you find out more or PM me. I would be interested in reading a scholarly work about Muay Thai.
     
  12. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    It'd be my pleasure. I'm glad I was able to clear up part of the mystery for you! I kind of went through the same confusion for awhile myself.

    There is a lot of confusion and politics involved in the traditional martial arts of Thailand. There are many who are teaching the older "MuayBoran" martial arts using credentials that cannot be verified or simply do not add up. I'm not sure whether or not I'm understanding the complexity of the situation, but what seems to be happening is that there are those who are claiming to be masters of "MuayBoran" that have been endorsed by the Thai government, but in reality they simply don't truly know the arts on the level that they should.

    There is also confusion surrounding the arts about what is real vs. what is not.... for instance, you have already encountered the problem with the name "MuayBoran", as its merely a modern, generic term used to describe the older bareknuckle styles as a whole, but does not refer specifically to any one particular style. But then there are styles such as "Lerdrit" and "MuayChaoCher" which are supposedly other Thai martial arts systems, but not a lot of verifiable information avaiable.

    At this time, I stick with getting my information through Vincent Giordanno and Colonel Amnat, as I know that they both travel, train, study, & most importantly, RECORD the older arts EXTENSIVELY! There are some others who I have confidence in as well, but Vincent and Col. Amnat are the ones who seem to have the most extensive, in-depth knowledge of the older arts.

    *please remember that though I'm familiar with a lot of this stuff, I am by no means an expert and don't necessarily have all my facts straight
     
  13. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    What are your opinions on Mr. Pooksrisuk's videos?

    I watched V.1 and found it the instructional method to be one of the strangest things I've ever seen in any muay training.
     
  14. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    You have to take them in context. It is what it is... which is to say that it is MuayThai taught as a martial art rather than a sport.

    I personally enjoyed Vol. 1, but I can appreciate why you would have found it odd. You have to remember that it was filmed during a seminar, so the workout and lesson are presented differently than were we to be training under him regularly.

    Vol. 2 is more of the same, but has a lot more technique being demonstrated.
     
  15. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    I'd like to Khun Kao's statements on the Colonel's works. I thought they were very good resources. Vincent also has an excellent two volume set on Krabi Krabong that is not in a seminar format.
     
  16. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    Oh, certainly. I didn't mean the instructional context itself, though, but it's certainly understandable with regards to that.

    I meant, though, that (guys, get your flame suits on, even though I do NOT mean to start a war!) the methods of training seemed to be what most muay'ers these days consider outright anathema; passive pattern training against attacks that often seemed half-hearted (many are known to deride other martial artists for dealing solely or primarily against attacks like one punch left extended, and only by using multipartite footwork likely slower than an incoming strike). I also found the idea of elbow striking with the palms on one's own head or ears rather unusual.

    What I said above was bordering on flame bait. I will graciously welcome being ripped to the ground for it if it's erroneous or a misinterpretation, since I haven't any background in that sort of thing so I definitely don't know what I'm talking about.

    That's interesting about vol. 2--maybe I'll see if I can check it out.

    How have his media (or his training, if you've had access to him) improved your muay in your opinion?
     
  17. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    What a lot of MuayThai practicitioners need to remember is that these static drills performed lightly are how we begin to learn practically ANY new technique or drill! If you start practicing new stuff at full force on the pads, bags, or sparring, you're never going to develop the technique right. You may be able to hit hard, but the technique won't likely ever become refined.

    In my experience, I have seen other martial arts that never move beyond this phase though. Almost everything was done lightly with a non-resisting partner. But then again, that's why I ended up seeking out martial arts whose training was more & more realistic, and therefore why I ended up landing in MuayThai....
     
  18. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    I know. I'm quite aware of that and do not want to drag up and rehash an argument which shouldn't even be there. I just found the methods strange that way compared to the way I've seen most muay'ers act where I come from (again, not like I'm remotely expert or that the muay I've seen is important, so it's just an observation I've made).

    As I mentioned before, I also found the elbow practicing methods strange; is there a particular advantage to those method (putting one's hands on one's ear or head)?

    How have his media (or his training, if you've had access to him) improved your muay in your opinion?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2007
  19. Jahk Nah Rai

    Jahk Nah Rai Valued Member

    I cannot say how or why the palm is open, only that it is and this was the way it was passed down. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that hands were still bound in rope (kaad chuerk) in Old Muay and closing to a fist just didn't seem natural when using elbows. Or perhaps it makes more sense to keep your palms open and relaxed as well. You also have to remember that the elbow techniques he demonstrated had poetic names to them, mimicking the movements as well. "Girl Placing Flower behind ear" for instance. "Touching your head or "Muay" is another example.

    The videos have greatly increased my understanding of the movements of muay Thai. Much of what we train in today is but a mere subset of the greater whole.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2007
  20. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    Jahk Nah Rai has pretty much answered the questions, but to clarify a bit....

    The purpose of placing your open hand on your head or over your ear is because those specific positions are both offensive/defensive moves. Having your hand in contact with your head makes a more structurally sound guard position so that you can absorb the impact from your opponents strikes more efficiently.

    Len Muay = Touch or Play with your hair
    Taad Mala = Place a flower behind your ear
    Taad Mala Kwai = Place a flower behind your opposite ear

    Keeping the hand open rather than clenched is what allows you entire arm to relax. You will be able to strike harder and faster with an open hand than with a clenched fist. This is why when we punch, we are taught not to clench our fists until the last possible instant.
     

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