Good Kung Fu.

sorry bout that

 

Really, because I can think of at least 4 good counters off the top of my head, all of which would allow you to re-attack with the controlled limb.
This comes back to what I always say about fixation with an aesthetic diminishing effectiveness. Pak Sau high on the arm while you attack with the other hand is a pretty universal concept (I mean it even has names in other systems) from Wing Chun to Hung Gar, to CLF, to Northern mantis, to Taijiquan, to Panantukan, to Silat, to Muay Thai, to Greco etc, etc. However, as a full on trap it's effective for less than a second. As soon as you become fixated with keeping the arm trapped you run into problems.
I must agree with Hannibal, while attacking the elbow does push it across the line more powerfully, it's stiff. As soon as your opponent changes the alignment of their arm you've lost all control. If you attack high on the forearm you can maintain your stickiness and change your bridge, if you attack low on the upper arm you can clinch up easily.
I also don't see how wearing gloves has any effect on your ability to perform this movement.

 

I agree engaging the elbows is important. The way I have found works best for me is to check the arm to the side or into the opponent and hit the opponent with my other hand.

There is no pinning move involved and I do not require that to engage the elbow that the elbow is attacked first. The point is to neutralize the opponent's ability to use their elbows for a moment.

In some cases, the above movements are enough that one can pin the elbow of the opponent, but what I have found is that many people are "hardened" against pins. What I mean is that if I were to try to pin their elbow, they would immediately counter or move away or maybe even over power the pin with superior strength and size. So before a pin, the person needs to be stunned. Stunning can be done in many ways such as through limb destruction, kicking them in the groin, or through controlling the wrist and hyper extending the elbow, etc.

In many cases the stunning, such as through limb destruction, is inhibited by wearing gloves.

So Melb, I agree engaging the elbows good, but to engage the elbows means to neutralize them, and this does not necessarily mean attacking directly to the elbow or pinning them. I also caution that many are "hardened" against pinning of the elbow and so stunning the person or arm should come before any pin.

This video shows engaging the elbow. It is just an example so don't judge it on the quality of the technique which is fairly loose (has holes for counter), but in the principles. The elbow is engaged but you see the control is at the shoulder and leverages the wrist and applies pressure on the elbow to block it from moving in one direction. Also this is not a striking example, plenty of those in FMA, I just got to go to training and don't have time to find one.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEnPyvDscsA"]MMA4Self-Defense Mid Level Clinch Defense Head & Arm Spin to Armbar or Strikes from Nasty Position! - YouTube[/ame]

 

Melb, do you have an comments on what Dan Inosanto says from 3:23 and on in this video?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpFSwQztptQ"]Bruce Lee by Dan Inosanto RARE - YouTube[/ame]

 

Dan teaching is always a joy to watch!

Note the hand position - high forearm and 6:48 onwards is a telling explanation of why styles are now being criticised

 

The high forearm may be more applicable with knife than unarmed, where you are more likely to "climb the tree" working in to the head. In unarmed you may be close enough to start off with an attack directly to the elbow. In either case, engaging the elbows is done.

My only concern with Melb's descriptions was that of the elbow pin. I have found it can work combined with a strike but basically it works best only when the opponent is stunned first.

 

Great vid!

 

If you are that close you don't trap you hit - the trap should only be in place when the hit is obstructed or blocked. The high forearm position offers far greater control and fewer opportunities for counter measures when compared to the elbow

Trapping has almost become perfunctory in Wing Chun

 

Must be a difference in our definitions. When I trap, I'm also hitting... If I'm checking the forearm then another part of my body is covering their elbow (e.g. my elbow or my hip), if I'm attacking the elbow, then other part of my body is covering their lower forearm (e.g. wrist grab).

Also, I don't consider two-on-one grabbing or pulling on the arm a trap, that is grappling. Or anytime something is grabbed that is grappling to me.

Just the way I look at it.

 

I think it is just semantics on my part probably - I trap to hit too, but then I consider the clinch a trap hence I tend to use the term HIA (or IA) from JKD rather than just "trap" which does tend to suggest pak/lop

 

FYI: We were taught a simplified version of most trapping/gunting due to us not having years of training.

It was simply checking (which is striking the limb like cutting with a knife only open hand) to the side, hammer fist into the bicep, then striking with the back knuckles to the head, finish with elbow strike to the bicep, two-on-one grab of the arm and drive the opponent's fist into the pavement.

During this, after the initial check and before the two-on-one grab, the hand that is not striking is generally controlling the elbow of the opponent.

I think the trapping came when the opponent countered back and you get an exchange for checks/parries and strikes. This rarely happened in sparring due to people keeping their elbows in and using evasive footwork.

 

Its a good video Rebel..I think anything negative I say about it will bring howls of derision but hey, cant please everyone.. Going for the locks is not something Id do but I suppose he did concentrate primarily on the stick/knife side of things throughout his life. He talks about going from trapping to western boxing..thats fine but if you tried to teach that to someone who didnt have a very solid background in trapping, I can guarantee that come sparring time the trapping would go out the window. He also says at one stage that if this happened WC people would 'sometimes' go straight..seemed a strange word to choose when hes wanting to say this is what a WC guy would do..? Then in the latter part, he starts talking about flashy stuff for the movies vs the realistic for the street. You have to wonder who his audience was at the time?? Certainly an interesting watch though.

Regarding the pin you were talking about, I wouldnt ever try to force someones elbow against their body, I would just keep contact and keep my elbow in. When I said push their elbow in it was meant to illustrate what is possible in terms of controlling via the elbow vs going for the forearm or standing back and slogging it out.

 

Thanks Melb, that helps to clear things up for me.

The issue I had was with the term "push" because a push to me is a certain way of touching that invokes a reaction from my opponent. That reaction is generally one of three things, (1) they tense up to resist and immediately strike me back, (2) they go totally "limp" and more around my push as there isn't a structure for me to push against anymore, or (3) they get pushed in the direction or turned in the direction I am pushing them.

Of the three, (1) getting hit back is the most common IME when dealing with Muay Thai. (2) giving me no structure to push against is most common when dealing with Tai Chi, IME. Either (1) or (2) and usually I end up worse off for my push.

Anyway, to me, I learned to always stun or unbalance before pushing. So I will check (which is basically parrying their arm to the side or into them like cutting through them) so that they do not have the reflex to tighten up or to go limp... and with this a strike to stun or unbalance them... followed then by a push, lock, etc.

So I think I figured out that by push, you might mean checking or cutting using my definitions.

Cheers.