Good idea, Bad Idea, MMA on a Lei Tai?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by qazaqwe, Aug 8, 2015.

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MMA on a Lei Tai?

  1. I'd pay money to see that

    62.5%
  2. Cute idea, but it won't work

    37.5%
  1. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Past couple of weeks, I've had this idea in the back of my head, call it too much Jack Slack or having watched Bloodsport for pretty much the millionth time (Even if it's dubbed in Croatian i can pretty much quote it word for word.), But, i've really been wondering, what would the technical implications be of contesting mma on a Lei Tai, where knocking someone off would constitute a loss?

    Further more, is it any less realistic of a fighting idea than an enclosed ring or cage? I'm the first to admit, i don't know enough about TMA or CMA to really be able to begin to answer that question, But i'd really think for the most part, fighting someone to a wall is probably quite good for urban confrontations, but fighting someone to a sheer edge, would probably be much more applicable given the wide open spaces and uneven terrain of less built up areas.

    I know this conversation is a stab in the dark, as i don't know enough about the topic to answer any questions or provide any new insights, but i figure i may as well ask to see what people think, so Mappers, the mic is open.
     
  2. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It would negatively effect clinch and ground, and also be unsafe for the Fighters.
     
  4. ned

    ned Valued Member

    I've seen one used at a few years back at a CMA competition for the sanda - a variation on the usual matted area on the floor , where the fight stops and then restarts after either competitor is forced out and concedes the point. (in this respect it would be less suitable for the MMA ruleset .)
    It makes for an added level of entertainment for those watching and some heavier throws/knockdowns for those competing (although the perimeter of the lei tai is heavily matted to break the fall.)
     
  5. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    What the Lei Tai does is introduce a different element of realism to the fight that can be quite interesting. When was the last time someone said ignore your surroundings in a fight and hope that there isn't somewhere that you can fall into? With adequate padding the fall wouldn't be a problem. Having an edge allows the return of throws/sweeps etc as a potential ''killing'' move and stops people from going into a clinch without worrying about where they end up. Without the cage it could make sports like sambo and judo much more relevant. Why should the odds be stacked in favour of the person who only plays to one end of the spectrum of where a fight can go? Bring it on!!

    ;' D

    (see 1:40:50 ) Have to take off, as whole movies is potential breach of Copyright (sorry) - Mushroom

    LFD
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2015
  6. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    That was sort of what i was thinking, i just wanted people to be able to tap people out if they could keep them in the center, so you'd still retain a bit of explosive submission work, with the odd well timed exchange of position, granted, i do see that there will be scope to just bullrush people out of the ring, but i still think is more scope for tactics than i am able to currently give it credit for.
     
  7. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Joe Rogan, regularly on his Podcasts talks about how he would like to see MMA fights in Basketball size rings, to get rid of the "Cage Play". Maybe in the rules forcing fighters to keep within a certain distance, so you don't end up in a running match.
    Basically the idea was people being caught in takedowns, then being saved by the cage, or those being caught in the cage and being ground and pounded. Without the cage, it might be potentially safer. But of course, it's all theoretical and only exists in the stoner rantings of JoRo's interviews.

    YAMMA had the idea of turning the ring into a "pit" (basically the opposite of your idea) where it forced fighters to be in the middle. It looked more like bowl and it didn't turn out well.


    RPW / Real Pro Wrestling is normal wrestling but with ring being raised high up. In Freestyle, if you step out of the ring, the opponent gets 1 point. (I've lost a match by being thrown out of the ring)

    Here's Daniel Cormier in one such match
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJcX20XZ2Is"]Real Pro Wrestling 211 lb. Finals - Daniel Cormier spanks Tommy Rowlands - YouTube[/ame]

    (edit)
    King Mo Lawal match, shows some work by the edge...a better example. But eh DC match is just good to watch though.
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO29vxzvUrE"]Real Pro Wrestling 184 lb. Finals - Muhammed "King Mo" Lawal vs. Brad Vering - YouTube[/ame]

    I'll be honest, I won't be suprised if this idea has already been tried somewhere. The Raised Ring has always been a fun staple, so having an MMA match is an idea.

    Of course the main issue is fighter safety, people will always find ways to have the environment as their advantage. (Certain fighters like fighting by the corner or the fence as it constricts the other's movements).
    So having a raised ring and some grappling? First thing I'm going to do is to throw my opponent out and as far as possible. It hurts loads (potentially) and psychologically it messes with their minds as it needs them to exert more energy to walk towards you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2015
  8. VoidKarateka

    VoidKarateka Valued Member

    Aren't there some sanshou comps that use lei tai as an arena? I know they allow throws and some grappling under certain rule sets (though it's not my area so a quick google search would clarify).

    I think it would interesting to see. There is that element of danger for fighters being on a raised platform but even then I'd like to see how they adapted to it. Most close quarters fighting I've seen in recent years in MMA has quickly devolved into shoving matches to the cage (usually followed by going to ground). I'd find it refreshing to see some close quarters stand up.

    The obvious problem with seeing that arena used for something like mma then comes down to a complete rule change to accommodate the arena. I don't think a 'ring out' rule could apply just by getting thrown out. But maybe a counting system might be good. Repeatedly having to climb up into an arena would be physically and mentally taxing if it happened enough, adding a whole new dynamic to the combat.

    I dread to think what it would take to get an event like that sanctioned and insured though.

    Side note, I've been inspired to watch Fearless again now. I love the lei tai fights in that film. So entertaining!
     
  9. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    How about you run the fights with 5x3 minute rounds, but if you get a ring out, you win the round, and when both fighters return to their corners the clock for the next round starts?

    As for safety, i sort of envisaged a pride fc sized platform, about a meter above a thick boarder of padding several meters wide, the idea i had was to stress the urgency and speed of the fight, while giving a paramount emphasis on footwork.
     
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    As someone who coaches fighters for Lei Tai fights, they're a terrible idea.
     
  11. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    I kind of get that feeling, but i can't help but feel, at the very least, there is probably a market for it, even if all you have is a sumo rushing people off the canvas, but granted, putting two people in a cage and having them duke it out with no rules was a pretty bad idea back in 1993, and look where we are today with the ufc.
     
  12. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    After a complete overhaul of rules, regulations and proper marketing. And even now its still a taboo sport despite the mainstream awards it is getting.

    With your LeiTei idea though, will need a rule or something to justify its existance. Once again using "Real Pro Wrestling" as an example, it was kind of pointless as you lose 1pt if you step out of the red zone anyway.
    In Sumo it's an automatic loss.
    You can say that if anyone steps out then its right back to the centre but that could still be used even with just a flat wrestling ring with zones.
     
  13. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Well, i was sort of thinking that a ring out would automatically end the round, winning the round for the person who remains on the podium, even if only a few seconds have passed, and when both fighters return to their corner, the following round would begin.

    So say if a sumo shoves a guy off the podium twice in under 10 seconds, the judges score cards will read 20-18 going into the third round after less than 20 seconds of action, of course, a submission or a knock out would result in winning the match, as usual.

    As for the wrestling mat idea, i realize it would be safer, but i think for the purposes of marketing, you'd probably be better to go with an actual raised podium, having to compete with the ufc, you need to have as many opportunities to create a highlights package as you can get.

    I realize that it took the ufc years to turn into a legit sport, but when it initially started it was quite well recieved by the public at large mostly held back by the powers that be, and only built most of its rules system out of pressure from government, as opposed to conceptual issues with the idea itself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2015
  14. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    So let me get this straight.. people think that simple, lowly sumo isn't much of a sport/art? All you have to do is push/shove someone over?

    ;' ) Well let's see [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zjA3KPnLK8[/ame]

    I think that people have no problem with someone losing because of a sub, why not from falling off a platform? Could similarly imply a death. Ok so everything has to be about the paying public does it? Then as mentioned make it that a person must win a majority of a number of rounds (2/3 or 4/5). Really that should also apply to subs and potentially winning by accumulated points for striking..

    Funny thing is that if a person is subbed in 30 seconds it is accepted. Similarly an ippon is considered a win in judo. I still think that the cage format is prejudicial against the throwing athlete since there is no way to win easily while the striking or ground fighting athlete gets an familiar path to a win.

    So lets say you have to clearly dominate a round with kicks/punches to carry the round(10 point must system?), sub/choke out the guy or finally throw/push/drag the person off the Lei Tai... Win a majority of rounds and then you are a clear winner.

    I know this isn't what will happen as , and I have mentioned this before, this is about entertainment and getting bums in seats more than just producing a realistic combat format for competition. The UFC is a monopoly and they have a product that suits their purposes... .yadda yadda... rant over :' D

    LFD
     
  15. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    The main reason i felt the round idea was pertinent to ring outs, was i wanted as many cross over athletes as possible to try it out, granted, i feel much more comfortable about the 3 round structure than the 5, but i felt 5 was fairer to fighers who are coming from a sport where there is no possibility of a ring out, granted, i feel as the sport develops it would probably result in less ring outs among the best of the best, so it can always be adjusted as need be.

    The main reason i see it working though, is the urgency of the bouts will hopefully increase the action, early 12 round kickboxing matches often felt a little bit stale, but you knock the fights down to 3 rounds like k1 did, and you found many more highlight reel moments, you have a fight that can be over completely in 30 seconds, it could probably generate a much deeper need for action, thus more highlight reel moments, that and i think it would probably answer a number of questions about TMA's while also providing more questions about combat in general, while hopefully having a enough spinny kicks and aerial throws mixed into the knock outs and subs to be able to attract some fans.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2015
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    So we're talking about Virtual Fighter then :p
     
  17. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    There should be an option where I think it will fail but I would still pay to see it fail.
     
  18. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Cept the violence would be real.
     
  19. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Yeah, i've come to realize i'm not the best at putting poll options together, just because both options were double meanings, doesn't mean you mean both things implied.
     
  20. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The falls from the Lei Tai REALLY slow down the action, and two thirds of the time both fighters end up going off. One of my guys threw a guy off who then grabbed the front of his shirt as he went over and he landed on the guy's knee and sustained a rib injury.
    The cage exists for a reason, and that reason is safety.
     

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