Good for the sake of Good

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Socrastein, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. Existence

    Existence Super Saiyajin :o

    Good for the sake of good requires compassion. You don't have to be a christian to feel compassion, you just have to be human.
    Although i think religion lends a helping hand to people who have trouble finding this feeling. As for those who do things out of fear of divine punishment, be glad their cowardice keeps them from harming your family. :woo:
     
  2. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    Showing that we haven't completely changed hardly means we haven't changed at all. Some things have changed, other things haven't. In general I think we've changed for the better.

    For example, if a local common boy can now write with the same wisdom that Solomon did, the greatest mind of 3000 years ago... ;)
     
  3. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Exactly. I explained how value is a function of desirability between a subject and an object. This is why value is inherently subjective. There is no such thing as objective value. Our lives are valuable because we value them, it's nonsense to speak of something that is valuable without reference to a subject that values it.

    Your denial of the obvious subjectivity of life seems unfounded and confused. You seem terrified of the idea that your life might be valuable because you value it, or that your morals might be such only because of what you value. Why do you find comfort in the idea of someone else telling you what is what? Why do you have a problem with the idea of thinking and desiring for yourself? Does your life lose all meaning if that meaning isn't handed to you on a platter? This all seems very sad to me.

    If there are so many atheists perfectly happy and content with their lives without God and supposedly objective values, then maybe the problem lies not with subjectivity, but the problem lies with you and your conception of it.
     
  4. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I admire your rosie outlook, but I disagree completely.


    Book knowledge doesn't make a person different. It just enables him to build fancier toys. I've been reading on book Black American history today. I'm quite impressed by historical accounts of illiterate slaves and illiterate people shortly after slavery ended. Some of those uneducated people (shall we call them "stupid" ?) had sky-high ethics. It's very impressive. Contrast them against their *educated* slave owners. Hmm. You were saying something about the ability to read and write? ;) Do you see the point now?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2006
  5. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    I see the point - if your point was to take a small counterexample and represent it as though it applied generally to the whole. If your point was meant to be a fallacy of composition, then yea, I got your point.

    Here's another, more realistic point - in the majority of cases, crime rates are inversely proporitional to the education levels of the population in question. In other words, stupid people commit more crime, in general, than well-educated people.
     
  6. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    actually i'm going to have to say, no, not good for the sake of being good, fear of hell/jesus/allah/sephiroth is most certainly a dominating factor for religious folk. but it still doesn't stop them, but socital construct would seem more reasonable. "good, until i can get away with it." is more like it.
     
  7. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    well then little johnny would be demonstrating a great sense of INITIATIVE! :)

    (thread necromanced through link in another thread and i felt the urge)
     
  8. Mixitup

    Mixitup Banned Banned

    Is that down to education or poverty? And is it that stupid people are easier to catch? Corperate and white collar crime is often 'hushed up'

    Defining crime is difficult too, taking a sicky, using the company stationary at home are all theft. Pinching the same pens from a shop seems worse, why is that? It shouldn't be.
     
  9. One Man Circus

    One Man Circus Valued Member

    Morality = social tactics, nothing more. So does that mean

    iff a>bc commit nefarious act

    where

    a = expected gain from act (personal, social or both)
    b = expected probabilty of being caught
    c = sanctions resulting from being caught

    Sounds pretty convincing doesn't it?

    So if I really hate someone (come on, we've all been there), and I'm pretty sure I can get away with it do i execute them? err no.

    Why? Empathy. The ability to see how my actions impact on my victim and society as a whole.

    So now
    iff a>bc+e commit nefarious act

    So people will do 'bad' things if

    1. They've got a lot to gain
    2. They do not believe they will be caught or they simply don't care
    3. They do not empathise with their victim

    Remember that humans can re-evaluate their actions after the event, so if after the event e>a the perpetrator will experience guilt. If e>c they will admit to their actions.

    It's possible that some don't commit crime solely because of the fear of divine retribution. However, if you believe this to be the case you're implying that religious types are morally retarded as they would be seriously lacking in empathy.
     
  10. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    somehow i think that was the general idea... ;)
     

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