I don't see where he has called himself a ninth or tenth degree black belt in Hapkido. I saw chiefmaster of Kuk sool won and President/Chairman of World Kido Federation, Han Min Jok Hapkido Association and Korea Kuk Sool Association.
Look, I don't have a problem with GM Seo, read my thread and you will see that. But if you google his name you will find it connected to hapkido in a lot of the links as a ninth or tenth dan. Thats why this thread is so heated. If you host hapkido seminars and you are a tenth dan wouldn't one make the assumption that you are a tenth dan in hapkido? Why would a tenth dan in karate host a judo seminar if he had a first degree in judo? I think you see my point, if he is not saying that he is high ranking in hapkido, people still assume it. Once again I respect him for his dedication to martial arts but you can see why some people are offended. I'm going to check out his interview I was sent the link and look forward to seing it and learning. Thanks.
a) to make money b) to situate himself for exposure to new potential followers (which will result in "a") c) to establish himself even further as a major player in TKMA.(which will result in "a") and he eagerly fosters that assumption when a oncologist poses as a cardiologist in the O.R., it is fraud and it usually result in loss of med liscense and sometimes in imprisonment, depending on the severity of the fraud. somehow these "grandmasters" , always seem to get a pass on this stuff. It seems as if people are so taken with thier skill, or maybe it's the lure of the potential of an upcoming rank promotion , or just to give themselves more credibility by being supportive/affiliated, that they just never question any of this stuff. Why is he or any other exempt from critical peer review? This is not a question of skills or background, it's a question of character....
Where you work, do they pay you money or do you work for free? It is not an evil or bad thing to earn money honestly. Do you consider yourself a peer to Grand Master Seo?????? As far as questioning the character of Grand Master Seo over the years I have found him to be a very honest, and patient man that loves his children and grand children very much. I have witnessed his honesty 1st hand when the truth might have been emabarrasing to some and a lie easy and to his advantage, Grand Master Seo tells the truth. You may not like or "trust" Grand Master In Sun Seo but my students and I truly admire and love him. J.B. Murphy
Interview with GM In Sun Seo Part 1: Unifying Hapkido will grow it to an International Martial Art Q. In this cold weather, how are you doing? A. I’m still very confident about my health. Every year, I travel the world to visit member schools and I conduct 7 hours a day seminars and I personally demonstrate the techniques. Even now, because I stretch and train 2 hours a day, I’m healthy. When I’m abroad, the foreigners are first surprised at my age and then they surprised a second time when I perform the techniques. Q. No one will object to the statement that you are a founding father of Hapkido. When did you start? A. I first met my teacher (Grandmaster) Choi Young Sul in 1957 and received my 1st dan in 1958. Since 1945, GM Choi Young Sul spread Hapkido but when he met Mr. Suh Bok Sup in 1953 in Daegu, he opend a dojang in the second floor of Mr. Suh’s Brewery. That was the beginning of Hapkido Dojangs in Korea. After that, the second dojang was opened and that’s where I practiced. Q. When did you first open your school? A. In 1961. I opened the Korea Kuk Sool Won Hapkido Dojang. During that era, Grandmaster Ji Han Jae first opened Sung Moo Kwan Hapkido in Andong prior to my school and in 1959, he opened Sung Moo Kwan Dojang in Seoul. Master Kim Moo Hong, an instructor under GM Ji, went independent in 1961 and opened a Sin Moo Kwan Hapkido Dojang. That was the start of the three branches of Hapkido that live today. Q. Hapkido from the start had phases of division? A. Yes, but shortly afterwards, there as an effort for unification. With GM Choi Young Sul at the center, we all agreed that “it shouldn’t be this way” formed Dae Han Kido Hae. At the time, we received permission from the Ministry of Education and GM Choi Yong Sul was elected the first chairman and Mr. Kim Kyung Dong was elected president. However, this still did not achieve unification. I think the main reason that we didn’t reach unification was due to the stubbornness of the 1st generation martial artists in Korea at that time. If all of us took a step back and worked together, it would have been possible. Instead, many of the individuals involved were young and hot blooded. In retrospect, it was very regrettable and a big opportunity we missed. Q. There was another brief period when it appeared unification was possible. It seemed significant when Mr. Kim Woo Joong (Found of Dae Woo) appeared on the scene? A. At the time in Seoul, Sung Moo Hapkido called itself “Dae Han Hapkido” and Sin Moo Hapkido called itself “Han Kuk Hapkido.” They united and called it “Dae Han Min Kuk Hapkido” with Mr. Kim taking part in this unification. However, at that time they couldn’t embrace Dae Han Kidohae and failed to achieve complete unification. At that time, Kim Woo Joong declared that he was going to make the combined Hapkido Organization bigger than Kukkiwon. Of course that didn’t happen. Q. You were president of Dae Han Kidohae for a very long time. You must have a lot of memories? A. I became president of Dae Han Kidohae in 1983. In the beginning of my tenure, one of my goals was to introduce the idea that the term “Dae Han Kuk Sool Won” would be a more appropriate term than “Hapkido” to represent the breadth of Martial Arts practiced under the Kidohae. We use the term Hapkido and Japan uses the same term (Aikido and Hapkido have the same Chinese character root) and I thought that it would be a better name for our martial arts and tried to make the change. However the government would not give permission to us for two reasons. First, the Hapkido name and branding around the name in the Korean consciousness was very strong. Second, the meaning of the words Kuk Sool Won (national Korean martial arts association) was deemed to be too generic. Therefore, I decided to support the name Hapkido instead. After that, I continued to meet with Dae Han Hapkido’s president Oh Sae Lim and Kuk Jae Hapkido’s president Myong Jae Nam to discuss unification. In the 80’s, over 80% of all Hapkido schools in Korea belonged to our three organizations. Even with these frequent meetings however, we were not able to unify Hapkido throughout my tenure as president of the Kidohae. Q. If the 1st generation could not achiever unification, do you think it is possible now? A. I believe it is possible. There are many Hapkido Organizations but in reality, only a few of them have significance in terms of number of schools and influence. I intend to form a kind of network/alliance with the 1st generation heads of different Hapkido organizations and styles so we can socialize and interact. Doing this will naturally help lead towards unification. Also, with the registration of Hapkido with the Korea Sports Association, we should see more of a spotlight on Hapkido in Korea and see more changes. Q. From your long history in the Martial Arts, share some memorable episodes? A. When I was young and just opened a dojang in Busan, there was a famous hoodlum in my area renown for his fighting ability. He was going around announcing that he could beat me in a fight. So I was training and waiting for the right opportunity to face him. Then one early morning, I saw him face to face and we met to fight. I executed a decisive technique on him and defeated him easily. Since I took control of him so easily and effectively, he said to me “I will treat you as my elder brother for life!” There were many such incidents such as this and many of the students that ended up joining my school had originally approached me in that fashion. There were a lot of difficulties and dangers involved for Hapkido in its infancy but it is great to see how far it has come. Q. I’m curious about the current situation of the Hanminjok Hapkdio Association? A. At this time, we have about 350 schools in Korea and many more outside of Korea. Because of the support of many Masters in our organization, both in Korea and Overseas, in the last 3 years we have grown at an incredibly rapid pace. Going forward, I’m going to work harder to continue to give back positively to Hapkido. Keep your eyes open as Hanmijok Hapkido Association becomes the best Hapkido organization! Q. Any plans for your organization soon? A. This coming April 15-16, we will be hosting an International Hapkido Compeition with over 20 nations participating. Not just with talk but with action, we are striving to be a positive example for other organizations through the various events and programs we are a part of. Q. Can Hapkido achieve the international success that Tae Kwon Do has? A. Of course! Many people say that Hapkido self defense techniques are superior to and more complete than modern “sport oriented” Tae Kwon Do. This is very apparent by how many martial artists of other styles seek to learn Hapkido and earn Hapkido Dans. The reason why such a great art like Hapkido doesn’t grow more is because it is not united. It is important to achieve unification soon, preserve the techniques, and improve on them and announce to the world “this is Hapkido.” If that is done, we can grow as big as Tae Kwon Do. I would also like to take this opportunity to once again express that it is very important that Hapkido unfies soon and that all Hapkido practitioners should take this to heart. Q. The new year, 2006, is here. Anything you want to say to the Martial Artists out there? A. Martial Artists should always be ready to serve others and should always keep in mind that we need to be good examples to others. We need to know that it is more important to have etiquette and respect than trying to learn one more technique. It is especially important to respect your seniors and love you juniors. I hope that you all have plenty of these positive thoughts and strive to apply them to your everyday lives. I wish all of you good fortune and good health in the new year!
As a technican in martial arts, probably not (at least not yet) i think it is entirely possible, even likely. I believe Marlin Sims is easily his peer technically, maybe better! If he can do it I can do it. As a human being he is not my peer, and probably not yours either. I think you have more credibility than he does. Of what I know of you I would possibly would refer some one to you if the situation exsisted. In the absence of alternatives, I would advise some one to quit before sending them to him. I am sure you see of him exactly what he wants you to see. Really? can you cite an example ? maybe you could inform us all as to the truth behind why he left kidohae and any events that led to that, I am really perplexed by this. I clearly asked this question in the ISS thread on this forum and still there is no real answer. Great, I am certain thats precisely what he intends, I treat my customers the same way, nothing wrong with that. thats just good business. and in his position that, along with his high skill, usually gets the job done , in spite of anyhing else that may exsist. He is masterful in that way as well. Look....., you, me , and everone else is not perfect. but people, act, talk and post as if this guy is jesus christ jr. and can do no wrong. He, (and many MAists of his generation) get carte blance treatment by all of the drooling ma masses for simply standing up. As i have said before, I acknowledge his ma prowess, he does have only a few peers. No offense, but I just don't get the attraction to him. Maybe we should agree to disagree and leave it there.
Choiyoungwoo, I know this sounds really lame, but I do not wish to quote what was said to me in private. I am loyal. I will agree that we do not agree and I wish you and GM Seo the best.
Fair enough, I can understand that. Let's keep up the discourse, I do find your post and positions interesting. Thanks for your candor CYW
are you training in kuk sool, and for how long? I have a kuk sool syllabus--will have to dig it out--but their techniques looked different from the clip. Maybe I am wrong (sorry for any misspelling) Do not understand why some would not call this Hapkido. I study Sin Moo Hapkido at an independent school , thank God!! Too much politics! We should be sharing our knowledge and experience of Martial Arts. All this -my hkd is more authentic than yours is disgusting--look on the internet--theres plenty of demonstrations of tech. by Authentic masters or instructors , if your not sure your learning the REAL DEAL! theres plenty of hkd tech. demonstrated by AUTHENTIC instructors!!!
20 years if that matters. I can name every tech in that clip and where it is in the current ksw curriculum. if that parallels any HKD then ...WOW what a surprise!! Because it is kuk sool. its not even slightly changed, you would at least think he would try to make it look different. well I agree with that sentiment in principle, but carried out to its logical conclusion would lead to everything being all generically mixed and clouding distinctions which is what many are so unhappy about. I think the purity issue is moot. yeah it is kinda silly ....sounds like a bunch of old korean men fighting about what happened 50 years ago.
HKD history Here is a site that may shed some more light on the history aspect. Whether it is fact or not is up to you. I only present it as another version by another author. Shinsei Hapkido History George
so if i were to learn from a certain grandmaster's example, i would do the following: step 1) grade to 3rd dan in hapkido step 2) stop doing hapkido, and practice other arts for 30 years step 3) rank MYSELF to 10th dan in hapkido (????) step 4) teach people what i know, which is actually more of what i did the last 30 years, and not very much actual hapkido step 5) hand out rank to these people (in hapkido, an art in which i myself have no legitimate rank past 3rd dan) how is this ok with people??? it seems really disingenuous. i have no problem with someone mixing up arts or not teaching pure original hapkido (unmodified techniques, with clear distinct lineage, directly from choi dojunim). if you want to teach kuk sool won with a slight hapkido inflence, great. but call it what it is, don't try to pass it off for hapkido or an evolution of hapkido. if i happen to be a world class thumb-wrestler, i'm not going to teach 80 percent thumb-wrestling and 20 percent hapkido, and try to say "this is hapkido 2.0... the evolved version". i'd say i teach thumb-wrestling with a slight hapkido influence. because that's exactly what it would be. so when people claim that the "purists" are nitpicking and say it's "disgusting," to claim that some hapkido is more pure than other hapkido, i think they are dead wrong. i think some hapkido IS very clearly and demonstrably more pure than others. look at the lineage. it's not really even a matter of opinion. if person A trains under someone like GM lim hyun soo, and person B trains under GM in sun seo, you have to look at the lineage there, and after doing so, you realize that there IS a difference in who teaches original hapkido and who does not. GM lim hyun soo is one of only a couple 9th dans awarded by choi dojunim, and choi spent the last years of his life (after he retired from officially teaching) at GM lim's school. from any perspective, i think that is almost impossible to argue against. contrast that to GM in sun seo's lineage, and the difference is obvious. he never even attained master rank in hapkido! he may be a very legitimately skilled martial artist, but most of his training is in arts other than hapkido. it's only natural that he would teach those arts, regardless of what he's calling it now. so when someone says "that's not really hapkido," it's not some kind of holier than thou ranting, nor is it even an insult! it's a simple observation, based on actual evidence and common sense. there is nothing wrong with not doing "pure" hapkido, but it's disingenuous to call it something it isn't. if you prefer your hapkido with a huge contingent of kuk sool won, fine, but call it what it is. i guess i'm just saying i object to this relativist attitude towards martial arts lineage. i wish people would apply a little critical thinking to the issue, and make logical deductions rather than start with the conclusion they want to reach and try to bend the facts to make that unrealistic conclusion seem plausible. just my 2 cents i guess
i did a google search of the entire kuksoolwon.com domain, and there are exactly zero iterations of the word "hapkido," nor of "choi yong sul." i also looked at their history of kuk sool won page, and the bio of suh in hyuk, and i see no mention of "hapkido" nor do i see choi dojunim's name mentioned at all. in fact they go to great lengths to describe kuk sool won as having been derived from another older line of ancient korean arts tradititon (well predating hapkido, and from strictly korean origins, where according to choi dojunim himself, hapkido came originally from what he learned training in japan), etc etc. so then that would make kuk soon won very clearly a different art than hapkido, no? i think suh in hyuk would be offended to hear you claim otherwise. your claim that by the suh/seo brothers learned what they know from choi dojunim is in direct conflict with the facts as generally accepted, and even the facts as represented by the suh/seo brothers themselves. suh in sun claims to have received a 1st dan from choi yong sul, and a "3rd dan in hapkido" (which he does not claim came from choi dojunim, though he doesn't say where it did come from). suh in hyuk very clearly has denied on more than one occasion any connection with choi dojunim, and makes no current claims to any such connection on his website or otherwise. so where then is your claim based? the facts simply do not support it. if, as you claim, their training came from choi yong sul, you're looking at one brother with no rank at all, and one brother with a 1st dan, according to their own claims of what rank they received/didn't receive from choi dojunim. where did the rest of that rank come from, if as you say, kuk sool is only a derivative of hapkido, created by the suh brothers based on what they learned from choi dojunim??? and then what right could they possibly have to hand out rank at all? however i do not believe this scenario to be true. i think you are demonstrably incorrect to claim that kuk sool won is a subset of hapkido. suh in hyuk himself has clearly stated otherwise on many occasions, and continues to do so to this day. here's a passage from the kuksoolwon.com page clearly setting forth the basis for kuk sool won as it's own distinct art that is not related to hapkido at all, and is certainly not derived from it: "In Hyuk Suh is the founder, Grandmaster and President of the World Kuk Sool Association®. He has studied martial arts for more than 50 years, receiving his first instruction from his grandfather, Myung Deuk Suh, a master-instructor to the Korean Royal Court. After his grandfather's death, he traveled throughout the Far East seeking out and studying additional aspects of the martial arts. The knowledge he acquired from his grandfather and subsequent masters enabled him to establish Kuk Sool Won™"nobody denies his legitimacy as the founder of kuk sool won, nor does anyone deny that his brother is a very gifted kuk sool won practicioner as well. i have no quarrel with kuk sool won, nor do i have any opinion or knowledge about the quality of their skill in martial arts. but it is distinctly NOT hapkido (by their own account!!!!), and i think it takes a huge amount of creative fact bending (or even inventing) to construe it any other way. the bottom line is that if you follow the list of ranks that both brothers claim, none of their substantial rank is in hapkido. if you follow the official history of kuk sool won, it's clearly not derived from hapkido or even related to it. hapkido isn't even mentinoed on their official page. like i said in my prior post, i wish people would do some real research and apply a little critical thinking, and a lot of this mess would be cleared up.
With no disrespect intended, I would have to offer the same advice to you. It's pretty well known that GM In Hyuk Suh presents the "history" of his art with a bit of creative license (much as some other HKD GMs have been known to do - many times out of nationalistic reasons). Granted, you did source the "official" site for Kuk Sool Won, but perhaps you should also look at some other sources. For example, take a look at GM In Sun Seo's own interviews and bio http://www.kidohae.com/about-gmseo.html (in Korean) http://www.hmjhapkido.or.kr/ http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html (both parts) The list of Choi Yong Sool's students (although there is some debate over the people included) - check the 1957 column http://www.hapki.co.kr/choisheet.htm its translation if you don't read Korean http://www.hapkidoforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=155 Also, check out Dr. he-young Kimm's history section in Hapkido I where he very diplomatically (due to his association with both KSW and HKD) notes GM In Hyuk Suh's association with Choi Yong Sool Dojunim for "sharing training". Also, take a look at the material in his books Hapkido I and Kuk Sool to note similarities and disimiliarities. Check out the transcribed KSW history article found at post #70 on this thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47448 for a nice reference to Choi Dojunim. Post #122 has a reference to Dr. Joo Bang Lee and GM Suh In Hyuk training under Choi Dojunim. The very name Kuk Sool means native arts (Chinese source and Korean source), of which supposedly many were added/blended by people such as GM Suh In Hyuk and even GM Ji Han Jae to create the arts known as Kuk Sool Hapkido and (Sin Moo) Hapkido respectively. Kuk Sool Won (R) is a name created to set up a specific name and distance it from others that were going on. GM In Sun Seo spent a lot of time helping develop, perfect, teach this art and then promote Korean Arts (Kuk Sool, including Hapkido) through his tenure at the Korea Kido Association and the World Kido Federation. Merely looking at him as "just" a 1st dan (or even 3rd dan) in Hapkido overlooks the years and years he spent working with Kuk Sool Hapkido (a Hapkido kwan and then the same art modified and re-named as KSW). It would be like saying that GM Ji Han Jae, as only a young 3rd dan under Choi Yong Sool Dojunim who mixed in other Kuk Sool traditions to make what is recognized today as Hapkido isn't worthy of that credit or to promote people because he "only" had a few years of training with Choi Dojunim (and those as a very young student). Regardless of the name, it's better to look at the what they were doing instead.
I see your point although the real problem is that it's only a short video clip of him doing some material... I know that the fan work is pretty much KSW at the very least. As for the rest, I am not sure exactly what he was doing. The empty handed material looks like Hapkido although the distance of the video and the relaxed way he's doing it makes it hard to spot. Still, it's tough to differentiate how much "Hapkido" there really is in "Kuk Sool Won(R)"... how much changed when the name went from "Kuk Sool Hapkido" to the protected "Kuk Sool Won(R)"? As an art KSW is made up of lots of "native arts" (Kuk Sool) that have been blended together. Dr. Kimm has established a link in technqiues sharing between GM In Hyuk Suh and Choi Yong Sol Dojunim. GM In Sun Seo started off with Choi and continued his training under the rook of "Kuk Sool Hapkido" (later Kuk Sool Won). That's where it gets tough. How do you define "Hapkido"? Are we looking at it from a very narrow veiwpoint of Yoo Sool or from a wider eceletic viewpoint like the Hapkido GM Ji Han Jae teaches. Hapkido by its very essence added Kuk Sool (native arts) to round out and make Yoo Sool into a distinctly Korean art - how much room for tolerance is there? For that matter even if a few minutes of video show GM In Sun Seo doing WKSA material, it shouldn't be a surprise considering his background. Then again, I've been on the floor where he teaches "Hapkido" (and blends in a bit of KSW material like fan) that fits my tolerence level based on my background. For that matter if I look at his gallery (http://www.kidohae.com/gal-tech.html) and can match up the technqiues to Dr. Kimm's Hapkido I or GM Myung Kwang Shik's Hapkido books does that mean I can refute your claim? Anyway - it's all TKMA to me!
whether the suh brothers did or did not train for some short amount of time with choi dojunim is of very little concern to me. even if both brothers did study under choi yong sul, the core argument holds water. and if you really want to get into it, the same argument applies equally to ji han jae. none of these people attained any rank of consequence or trained for any serious length of time with choi yong sul, even if you concede that they all trained with him at some point. so whatever they did from there as far as blending whatever hapkido they learned (in the short time they trained with him) with whatever else they knew is just that: a blend. a mixture. the hapkido content is diluted by everything else that was added in, and frankly, they should have been upfront about that. since choi yong sul was the sole founder of hapkido, he ought to be regarded as the sole source of legitimate rank in hapkido. simply put, someone who he ranked to 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree or whatever can't just autonomously declare him/herself a 10th degree grandmaster and the head of his/her own version of hapkido. anyone could claim to be the head of his/her own art, and that's fine if that's what you want to do, but it's fraud to call that art hapkido unless you have the rank and lineage to back it up. these guys don't have either of those things by any stretch of the imagination. so whether or not they claim it, i think just through logic, one can deduce that kuk sool won is it's own art, not a version of hapkido. it's a blend. maybe some of it was influenced strongly by hapkido, but it's something else now. same with sin moo "hapkido." it's a blend. that's not a negative thing, but i just think it's not right to call those things hapkido. the founder of hapkido did not see fit to rank any of those three men all that highly in hapkido, and nor has anyone who was ranked sufficiently by him, so where do they get off claiming to be hapkido grandmasters? if you have solid blue paint, and mix it with an equal quantity of solid red paint, you can't call that paint blue anymore. it's purple. and you should be regarded as delusional, colorblind, or fraudulent if you then try to sell it as solid blue paint. all this talk has me wanting to spend a few years learning the martial arts stylings of orangutans and chimpanzees, so that i can come back triumphant and declare myself a grandmaster of chimp sool hapkido. i mean if a heavily blended system is still hapkido, then what's to stop me? safari time!!!
dedrater, I see that we are NOT going to agree. It is obvious that there are two factions here that have two very different views on this subject. It is as obvious to me that you will not change your view, as it is that Thomas, myself and the others from Hanminjok will not change ours. I am a busy man, as I am sure you are as well. I have wife, two dogs, and seven dojangs. I am far to busy to debate or slug it out in a forum. I do however like to exchange ideas here from time to time. I wish you all the best in martial arts. J.B. Murphy
