Gikan ryu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by jameswhelan, Jul 26, 2012.

  1. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Because they've been hanging around longer. That much is evident.

    Most aren't.

    Because my instructor's training with hatsumi predates all the Rank/organizational crap that you're so fixated upon..


    Going to seminars is what people do when they don't have access to the knowledge. Hence why you tell us often that you go. That seminars are so plentiful is a good indication how many people don't have access.

    P.S. I imagine there are other reasons you don't go.
     
  2. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    This is 100% correct.

    We don't get to choose the level of relationship we have with a teacher, but we can increase our chances of getting closer to the teacher.

    A teacher-student relationship is just that, a relationship. Everyone's is different. We don't get a pamphlet from which we choose from plans A,B, or C. We train and the teacher decides whether it's worth it to give us anything and how much to give. Some people get more and some less.
     
  3. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

    Question: Vladimir Putin is a 6th dan in Judo, how much do you think it bothers him to see a 7th dan that he thinks he could beat?

    I'm guessing he doesn't lose any sleep over it...
     
  4. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    He'd probably have them quietly disappear!!!! Lol
     
  5. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Benyoka posted

    Ok so because they have been hanging around longer they have the grades...OK

    So then I asked you why you think you are getting the real stuff and you replied...

    So the people that were there in the early days possibly have the correct stuff and those that came later probably haven't, is that what you saying?

    No I think your wrong there. People teach seminars because they have something to teach, and people try to excel at teaching seminars because they want to be invited to teach again. In fact a lot of people teach seminars after they have just returned from Japan and are therefore usually teaching the real stuff.

    In fact I suggest that in a usual class pretty much the basics are taught (Ingrained) the kihon happo etc, and its the Seminars where you pick up the good stuff.

    Yes mostly because i'm not impresed with many people.

    Yet in any other educational system getting close to the teacher isn't a prerequisite, the teacher should teach whatever they should teach. OK so we hear the excuse, "this is martial arts and its different", but why should it be. We don't see these problems in Karate where people are wondering if they have the real stuff.

    OK sure if you get a good bond with a teacher he may teach you extra bits, but we should never be in situation where you have to hope your being taught the real stuf rather than a load of crap.
     
  6. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    That has less to do with time spent along Hatsumi and more to do with training attitude. Please stop acting like you don't understand that.

    Or they're teaching their own interpretations.

    Might have to do something with the difference in scope.

    FYI, you see more or less the same thing in the Kuntaosilat world.

    According to one of my social sciences textbooks from the 90's, the world's oil resources should have been totally depleted by now and computers rob people of their humanity.

    People are going to give you erroneous information whether anyone involved wants to or not. Deal with it.
     
  7. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Kagete posted

    Who says i'm acting that i don't understand tht. I'm just asking for confirmation of what Benkyoka is saying.

    Thats doesn't just happen on seminars it hapens in classes too.

    Yes but it shouldn't

    But they hadn't buit the Siberian pipe line then.

    Who said they havent consider we sit here talking on one rather than conversing face to face.

    Oh i'm well aware of that, which is why in a previous post I asked how anyone knows if they are getting the real stuff.

    To me its like religion. They are the only ones that are going to be saved but if you ask how they know that they say "Faith"
     
  8. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Actually I think that the ones who will be "saved" as you put it (or "get it" in my vernacular) will be the ones that train hard, focus on self development and have an open mind to learning

    It's quite simple I think
     
  9. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I am, and it doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever.

    EDIT: And?

    Has a guy in a trenchcoat named Deckard shown up to put you out of commission? No, he hasn't.

    To me and most others it's weighing facts against each other.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  10. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    No. I'm saying that the people who have a real teacher-student relationship with Hatsumi (like the original shihan) are getting the 'real stuff' as you call it.

    Actually, I think you're wrong. I've seen so many people teach just-back-from-Japan seminars because it's the easiest way to make money in the organization. Because so many people lack the knowledge they flock to these kinds of things but, really, how can your standard don't-know-correct-movement-from-a-whole-in-the-wall person teach something they saw soke do for 5 minutes in hombu?




    We are not dealing with standardized common knowledge. We are dealing with a lineage. It's amazing to me that you're blind to this point. Not everyone gets everything. I thought you thought you knew at least a little about these martial arts.


    If you go to the source and train correctly there's no hope involved. Of the two things I just mentioned how many people do both? It's really very simple but I suspect you make it difficult as an excuse to do your own thing. Why should you get taught the same stuff takamatsu taught Hatsumi? What makes you, Garth (and others) deserving of it?

    This isn't public school. This isn't university. This is a lineage that, just like other martial lineages, has survived by being passed down to select people.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  11. tenchijin2

    tenchijin2 Valued Member

    Just to drag this even further off topic, I'd like to reply to this from Syd:
    Not only that, but it's tough to get support for a seminar that is designed to be a hard core fundamental training event (which soooo many people need). I did a seminar in Arizona some years ago where the host asked me to include a whole "back from Japan" section in order to get ANY support from other dojos in the area. They really needed a basics event, but weren't interested. It wasn't to make money, it was just trying to get enough attendance to cover the expenses!

    That's what people want. Kind of a shame, really. Fortunately that strategy did draw in some attendees, who also stayed for the rest of the event which was basics oriented.
     
  12. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Why doesn't everyone get to learn the real stuff? Was that your question Gary ?

    I would have thought a quick look at the type of people it's most likely in place to try and combat, would answer that, no ?

    Hint bum holes, ( rvd, skh, wlr etc.)

    My tuppence
     
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Personally I feel that there are very few secrets in the art

    Pretty much everything that you need to become good at the art is out there (with one caveat: That you do need to experience the techniques from a master in order to get a sense of how it works). I know that there's many levels beyond "good", but that's what we're discussing here I think

    The simple issue is that in order to crack this art you have to put in a lot of effort, have guts/determination, lose your ego, demonstrate a certain attitude etc. Of course only a small % of people in life have this (applies in all walks of life and all martial arts that I've come across)

    It seems to me that people who:
    - Train with an original student of Hatsumi sensei place more emphasis on how it was in the old days
    - Train with a Japanese shihan who has trained regularly with Soke for the last 20+ years place emphasis on how Soke has improved and it's what he's been doing in the last 20 odd years that is important
    - Train directly with Soke emphasise the direct connection as being important
    - Live overseas emphasise the need to figure it out for themselves
    - Are creative in nature emphasise the importance of creativity/lateral thinking
    - Are analytical in nature emphasise the need to deconstruct technique and apply the principles of physics/biomechanics
    - and so on

    I kinda think that the truth is somewhere in between all of these
     
  14. seattletcj

    seattletcj Valued Member

    Of course Will. Same as in every other human endeavor.


    Just for fun, why is it important that what you practice is part of a chain of transmission? That was your first criteria.
    What if something is proven to work...without such an "unbroken" chain ?
    I love history, with a passion. Thats why being involved in such a lineage would be interesting and exciting, for me.

    What about for you?


    Sure. Is it because of the "chain of transmission" or the "effectiveness" ?
    Again, just for fun. Curious.


    I have no aggression or ill feelings towards you Will. Something you wrote obviously got my attention.

    Because you said that 99.999% of the bujinkan sucked. Why wouldnt you want to practice your beloved arts amongst practitioners that did not suck?


    No disrespect? Are you sure Will? Sounded sort of disrespectful. But whatever. My though was that if you wanted to get as close to the source as possible you would go to someone, close to the source.
    And I dont see anything wrong with Doug's performance on the human weapon. Training at the source is what shaped his performance, good or bad.
    And his movement.....I think its pretty good. But I suppose not Kacem good.


    Now who is being aggressive? I assume he has a close relationship with the Japanese shihan and soke Hatsumi. And that he has been training under them for a long time. Is that incorrect ?
    Politics aside Will.


    Actually, he may have been. I dont know for sure.

    Why the soup references?
    Actually Will you were the one complaining about the organization, saying it was comprised of 99.9999% suck.
    I wanted to pick your brain, on why you would participate in such an organization, if thats what you thought about it.
    Because you are a part of the organization, and practice the art of Bujinkan budo taijutsu, correct?

    It was not meant to be an "attack". Or "aggression". I apologize if thats how it seemed.
     
  15. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Honestly I am not sure if I understand what you are asking or implying... but why would I *not* want to be part of a chain of transmission from the source of the art I am trying to learn? Are you suggesting that it is better to learn an art (X) from someone outside the chain of transmission of X? I fail to see your logic.

    You asked "what if something is proven to work without such an unbroken chain" – yes, what about it? I am sure there is plenty in the world that is effective in fighting. But I am talking specifically about learning X - not Y, or Z or anything else.

    I said I didn't want to move like Manaka sensei – did I mention chain of transmission or effectiveness there? Again, I already have found someone I want to move like. Isn't that enough?

    Again, my statement was a bit too strong. But naturally, I try to practice with those that help me grow and practice well. And this is reality. I am in the Bujinkan, training under someone who is in the Bujinkan. If I wanted to switch, I would have already done so.

    I already did.

    Then we see things differently :)

    I don't know what training he has done outside of Honbu dôjô or if he is a deshi to any Shihan... I don't know anything about his practice outside of what I can see with my two eyes. Not my cup of tea.

    Okay, good for you :)

    I don't know? Does he?

    Did I complain? I am VERY happy with how the Bujinkan is structured and organized. VERY happy. Otherwise I would never have been able to practice the way I do.

    I would not want it any other way. Honestly.

    I hope my words were not taken as an attack or aggression either - it was not intentional :)
     
  16. seattletcj

    seattletcj Valued Member


    Just tossing ideas around.
    The chain of transmission should create something of quality.
    But, when it does not do that consistently....then should the importance of that "chain" still be paramount above all else ?

    Thinking out loud.
    In you and your teachers case the quality seems to be there. But why?
    Is it due to the chain of transmission, or the individual instructors God given talent ?

    I have a feeling if Kacem were a 100% judo guy he would also excel to high levels in that art.

    Was Doug's performance, good and "bad" on the human weapon due to his own ability completely, or due to the training he recieves from the source regularly? Did the source prepare him properly to perform in that environment?

    Again, just throwing some stuff out there.

    I guess I'm asking, how much responsibility does the "chain of transmission", and a teacher have on a students performance?
    Specifically in the traditional arts.


    Because in the "combat sport arts" the line of transmission and teacher credentials create very clear objective results.
     
  17. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    Hi

    It wasnt ken Harding who started the mistake. The mistake was active in the UK as early as 1992. It is quite possible that the mistake was started here in the UK.

    I know Ken very well. I am sure he was entertained by your email accusing him of starting a mistake that was not his doing
     
  18. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Hmm,i'll check when that Shodan list came out, but I know in about 1992 that list was only available to Shodans and above and there were'nt too many of those back then. And i'm pretty sure thats where the list that went on the internet came from.

    Paul, can you provide a source for your claim that this idea was around in 1992 ?

    Oh and by the way when I said it was Ken Harding, I also used in that sentence the abbreviation "IIRC" suggesting that I could be wrong.
     
  19. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    HI

    can i provide a source for for proof it was claimed as Gikan Ryu in 1992.

    Yes i can. ME

    In 1992 at seminars in the UK (one of which was held in kent because that was where I got my 2nd dan) I was handed papers by UK teachers at the time, one of which is still active and another teacher who was claiming it was Gikan ryu was not British but was doing seminars in the UK.

    So there you go a very good reference.

    I will also add. I was one of the very first to discover it was not Gikan Ryu and that it was Asayama Ichiden Ryu and inform the said teachers of the mistake.

    The actual paper I was handed back then was the original Genbukan Shodan paper, which may have been for Genbukan only but made its way into the hands of many Bujinkan. Those that have those papers will remember they never said the school name. Across the top of the first section someone had written Gikan Ryu.

    As for Ken.
    You seem to recollect it may have been him but you clearly remember emailing him he was wrong. Funny.
     
  20. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Paul

    When I ask for a source from yourself, you cannot use the source as yourself. Sorry thats not how Burden of Proof or evidence works. I thought after all you were an academic.

    Here is the article to which I replied

    http://www.ashidome.com/uo/0995-n.htm

    Which clearly states September 1995.

    Now Ken does say the material came from Europe, but if your claiming its 1992, and I have no reason to believe it doesnt, except of course the rarity of the material, then please provide a source.

    Saying you have seen it is not really evidence.

    Sorry.
     

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