It is a relative term of comparison, if you have done both items the mindless one is a lot easier to do.
Hannibal calm down and stop being so dismissive. People are allowed to disagree with you and be what you consider "uniformed". You are not helping progress this conversation with this attitude.
The purpose of this thread is to give one example and discuss whether "internal" approach can do it any different or better. Try to - kick your right leg out as far as you can, and at the same time - punch your left arm out as far as you can, - while remain proper single leg balance, will require "structure", "flexibility", "balance", "coordination", and "mind".
Could you please explain why everyone who goes to the gym is not impressively strong after a short time frame (a year or two)? If building muscle is mindless (which its not, the amount of mind energy measured by EMG in muscle tissue is very high in body building and strength sport activities) then your assertion would hold true. I think there is a misconception in the idea that strength training is mindless. there is certainly nothing mindless about recruiting every muscle fibre in your body to perform a snatch or rooting yourself and getting perfect abdominal brace to stop an icelandic ship from crushing you. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpUrXJNcS_8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpUrXJNcS_8[/ame]
What your idea of proper and my idea of proper might be different, but you have your opinion based on whatever you were taught, so think as you like, but claiming to be right is probably wrong or you are doing it different, if you get good results your way , good for you, that is the true test. I assume you were taught this by a traditional lineage. Mine is from Wang lineage, taught by Master Cai from China.
My point is that you dismiss and entire training methodology as "mindless", which is not only insulting it is flat out wrong. If I claim the earth is flat it doesn't matter how much i articulate my rationale I am just wrong and calling someone on that is not a case of stifling discussion it is just saying it like it is Nowhere do i claim one is superior - in fact that is diametrically opposed to my position throughout the thread I have multiple lineages in both so called "external" and "internal" styles just for reference
I am a little lost here and I am clearly no expert on this subject but is the alignment really important as long as principles such as mass energy equivalence are in place? Position and trajectory can be forced to change in an actual fight. I know structure is important but it is not constant. There is also no such thing as a mindless act even at the deepest philosophical level. Kinetic energy is simply half the mass times the velocity squared, regardless of position. When you say internal energy do you mean principles such as prana and mental focus?
You are right, it requires all those things, but the two pictures you posted are not trying to develop the same thing.
I think your misinterpreting the mindless, of course the mind is involved, but not in the same manner, and physically training takes determination for sure, but the mind body relationship is a lot different comparatively and if you have done both then you can compare them. One is repetitive, liking doing a task over and over, very little mind needed, the other your are doing nothing...the body is still not moving and you can only use your mind to constantly check on everything that is going on, the mind is fully involved trying to do what it is supposed to do for whatever you think it should be doing.
Almost everyone I have encountered who was functional capable; uses some strength ranging from a deep inner refined strength to the more conventional muscular strength. For truly watery cloud like contact that can spin you over on to the deck with the effort to flip a coin, only 2 folk I encountered have/had this 1) my Taichi teacher Ian Cameron who makes Pushing Hands seem absolutely effortless and can easily dump me on my butt, barely moving more than an inch. 2) Seigo Yamaguchi (RIP) renown Aikidoka of yesteryear, who literally had the touch of a feather and projected opponents like slow water from a watering can on a lazy summer afternoon watering the flowers. I never have met anyone quite like Yamaguchi who would bounce great brutes about like a basketball - but using the effort of flipping a sixpence. Many, many people try to emulate Yamaguchi, but no-one could even agree on what it was he was doing as he broke every rule and expectation of Aikido. He almost used to taunt the young bucks of the day in the 1980s UK Aikido epoch like a Matador would with a bull. This kind of truly empty water force can be experienced, and maybe trained/developed (to the best of one's non-egotistical ability), but it is just too difficult and diffuse to discuss on internet or look at on a 2 dimensional video. I have encountered some folk who were very vapour like and diffuse but were functionally weak and had gaping holes in their function. The fully watery empty force with full martial function is extraordinarily different and difficult to find in oneself and others.
Because the spine was brought up, lets talk about the spine. Here is the article section of Dr Stuart McGill, an expert in the practical study of the spine and its surrounding musculature. http://www.backfitpro.com/articles.php He is well published in academia and has worked with every type of athlete imaginable. His thought on power generation are very interesting. One of the interesting things he bring up in this article was a study he did on strongman competitors where he found that in certain carrying exercises they were able to produce more force than the muscles around a joint should actually be able to produce by creating stiffness in the trunk allowing the musculature from the trunk to assist in power generation through the alignment of vertebrae and stiffness of muscles. http://www.backfitpro.com/documents/bottomupart.pdf He calls this in another article as "super-stiffness". When the stiffness of the trunk muscles are enough to allow and even aid in total body power generation. http://www.backfitpro.com/pdf/Enhancing_back_performance_with_super_stiffness.pdf Well how does this apply to martial arts? Here's another study he did on striking. http://www.backfitpro.com/documents/Strikefasterandharder.pdf It seems the ability to rapidly relax and contract the musculature to an appropriate level is essential if you wish to transfer force from, through and to your body - creating super stiffness momentarily and therefore a stronger strike while maintaining a good degree of relaxation when not needed. TLDR: good biomechanics are best
A great example of inner power comes from the world of tennis. There have been various tests on tiny Justine Hennen Hardenne and the power she generates - supposedly greater than any male of her time. Look at how much torque, power and body rotation she packs. Some folk I chat with equate this somewhat to an energetic version of Parting the Wild Horse's Mane, which is a fairly well known TaiChi application. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GzW401yri4"]Justine Henin-Hardenne - Slow Motion Backhand Slice - YouTube[/ame]
Exercises to build structure are necessary in both hard and soft style training. The difference, IME, is as I stated before, hard style training focuses on linear power, soft style training focuses on changing direction of power. You can read this as hard-style develops greater power in shorter amount of time!!! You can also read this as soft-style can develop inferior power in lieu of being more dynamic/fluid!!! External guy is going to use both hard and soft style training, Internal guy is going to use both hard and soft style training. So what is the difference? External guy is going to start with primarily hard-style training and move progressively more towards soft-style training. The structure developed changes from rigid to more relaxed/dynamic structure over time. External guy without soft-style training is going to be rigid and predictable, even if very strong and powerful. Internal guy is going to use both hard-style and soft-style training but with the caveat that it all must be done using the relaxed/dynamic structure of soft-style training. Internal guy without hard-style training is going to be weaker. Internal guy has it much harder because trying to develop hard-style training using soft-style structure. External guy has it easier at first but has to retrain/change structure over time, which means along the way, breaking of bad habits and potential for internal conflicts. IMHO.
The mechanics are the same for internal power generation as for external power generation. The difference is how the body is developed to use the mechanics. Some of the mechanics really only work when in a relaxed state and the body might not be prepared properly to use these "rapid fire" mechanics effectively with power. The danger is the possibility of internal conflicts when trying to learn new things as the body leans towards old habits.
To assume that external guys will need to break "bad habit" is a slap on all external guy's face. Since you have mentioned that external guys need to "break bad habit", allow me to mention some "bad habit" that "internal" guys also need to "break". IMO, not willing to - stand on one leg, - lose your balance, take advantage on the gravity, take your opponent down, and then regain your balance back, - use footwork to move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path, - spin your body in order to generate the maximum speed and maximum power, - keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer. - admit that offense is better than defense. - give before take, - ... are some "habit" that "internal" guys will need to "break" away too.
i would argue internal peeps have more, worse habits than external people, and more often. the ones who don't are the truly dangerous ones, and many of those habits are broken by external training methods. then again internal and external is a silly nomenclature at best, a stupid distinction at worse (and i will personally get the united nations to censure the next person i see, hear or read saying that you can move without using muscle. it is an insult to physics, biology and biomechanics )
It is a slap on the face. Everyone can have bad habits, not just "external guy", but specifically the mark of hard-style training is test things out in combat (or simulated combat). When stressing the body, habits are formed. There is no saying if they are bad or good, but be honest with oneself. Many habits formed from combat do end up being bad if not addressed properly. If for any reason, habits can make you predictable. It is a price to pay for training under high stress environments. You can argue that soft-style has combat, but I would counter and say that things like push hand competition is one of the "hard-style" aspects of training in soft-style. I would equally slap in the face an internal guy that after many years never tested things out in a competitive environment, combat, or simulated combat. They are lacking the hard-style training. But I wouldn't necessarily say they had bad habits, I would say they were inexperienced.
