generating force

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by cloudz, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    thing is only in one of those clips can you actually see a technique which has been proven to work over and over in real fighting and sparring with both guys moving around and not in a set stance

    I spent several years doing earls form of tai chi with one of his students, got the power generation down that i could break boards from both one inch and no inch (hand resting on board no pull back) but i never pulled off such power generation in fighting, , thats the problem with allot of these types of power displays, the set up time is unrealistic and thus so is the technique

    On the bruce lee clip i remember paul whitrod pointing out its not a usable technique because his body moves way more than an inch, and the arm is extended which isnt really applicable to real fighting , now if you can hit the same technique with a bent arm and said arm only travelling an inch that impressive, saw whitrod do this with no windup or set up, but again the other guy wasn't moving around, and he dropped like a sack wasnt pushed backwards but dropped on the spot

    Honestly unless you can show it against a moving opponent from a fluid stance all it really is a nice trick, and largely impractical its not about the best way to generate power as such but more about the most practical way to generate force, all you have to really do is look at an MMA fight to see the best most practical way to generate force, and if what you are doing doesnt look like that well then.....
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Are our definitions of pivot point different? Pivot points are NEVER at the joints. If the pivot point is at the joint, you lose all power generation from the joint. Most pivot points should move towards the target along the power line and everything else rotates around them.

    Example of common pivot points for power on a right reverse punch/cross:
    1) vertical line on front of the left hip.
    2) right ring finger knuckle (although it is really the finger tip but when you make a fist it aligns with the knuckle)
    3) ball of right foot

    less common pivot points:
    4) horizontal line across front of chest
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Preaching to the choir mate!

    Bruce when fighting did what? Kickboxed pretty much!
  4. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    I aggree with your argument, the place these will probably work is on first hit, or surprise attack, to try and end fight before it actually starts.
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I know lolot was more aimed at others lol
    ironically the best place for that kind of power generation stuff is in the clinch and stand up grappling, those short sharp shocking movements work great of a neck tie or underhook to create room to strike, randy did it brilliantly, and I have said this before but the best most practical shock power I ever felt came from hawkeye stand out wrestler Kenny Johnson whilst he was doing snap downs or shoulder bumps in the clinch, of course he never over analysed it, it was just natural to him as it was to most high level grapplers
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I used to think so too. But I've come to the opposite conclusion over the past few years. The detailed power generation methods help more with longer ranged striking.

    There are two reasons. One is that the 70-80% "effort" striking is the bread and butter striking that needs to be reliable. The better understanding of power generating mechanics combined with building good structure help to develop one's strikes so that they can knock out using only 70-80% of perceived effort.

    This is important more in long ranged striking, which brings up the second reason. The longer the distance that must be covered the more important timing is. Timing is developed primarily through experience combined with training. The more experience one gets, the more it is confirmed that simplicity is key. The better understanding of power generating mechanics combined with building good structure help to get the most out of the mechanics so your technique can be simple and effective.

    For example, a swing (e.g. haymaker) can generate great power, but it can be easily evaded and countered by a skilled opponent. The reason is that not only do you step, but you also rotate the torso. Perfecting the timing to combine these two movements into something direct and hard to see is incredibly complex.

    However, take a lead straight punch that you just step and hit the opponent with almost zero torso rotation. This is much harder to counter because it is direct. The timing for this strike to be effective is much simpler to apply compared to using stepping and turning.

    Getting the lead straight punch to hit with knockout power is something that does not come as easy as learning to use a haymaker for knockout power. Therefore, the power generation mechanics need to be better and more refined, so that the strike has enough power to get the job done.

    Edit: I think one of the issues is that we learn so many mechanics for generating power, that we end up over complicating things. I think it is a misconception that more mechanics means more complicated. Instead, these mechanics should be ingrained so they naturally simplify technique.

    -A strike using my shoulder is short range, a straight lead punch should be just as simple as striking with my shoulder, but now I've added the length of my arm to the reach.

    -A palm strike where I strike from finger length away is short range. A longer ranged palm strike should be as simple as touching/striking with my finger tips and hitting with the palm.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  7. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Correct me if I am wrong but what has been talked about for 40 posts or so, is linear force vs torqued force with what I know as vibration force - common tactic used in Pushing Hands to disrupt/uproot an opponent who 'listens' well; largely head-on to the opponent - and some other stuff reg. mechanics/internal/external/chi further back.

    This is 1 quality of force in a fairly contrived circumstance - fine for basic training, but not that realistic.

    In the TaiJiQuan I do, there is sometimes talk of other forces - amongst others cutting contact - coming mostly from Saber and unarmed applications, intwining force - coming mostly from Spear and unarmed applications, turning force coming mostly from moving step Pushing Hands and associated applications.

    What I am saying is that forces, their exchanges, sequences, combinations of; are what makes Neijia ICMA interesting - to me - maybe not to other folk.
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Oh, I haven't been talking about vibration force at all. I'm not talking about different kinds of force. I'm talking about methods for generating linear force.

    All techniques consist of circles or spirals. Generating torque is just one of the concepts for generating linear power. Torque is just the result of yin and yang (opposing forces interacting).

    If any of this leads to vibration, that is more of possibly how it is perceived. There is a wave effect in how power is generated, that could be perceived as a vibration.
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Geometrically speaking, angularity and curved angularity comes into techniques and subsequent application; and spring like force expansion/contraction - along with circles, spirals and eventually waves - in my TaiJi lineage at least - this was very similar in the Aikido I did many years ago.

    However, a lot of other force analysis - as described 2 posts back - comes into my Taiji lineage and into ICMA in general - but folk tend to be a bit vague in all of this - as written reference is not that strong and a lot is passed down in oral and physical transmission.

    Forces may mean different things to different people dependent on their perspective, experience, exposure and training.

    The use of forces in techniques and subsequent applications, is what some people say led to TaiJi Forms, but again the written reference for this is not that strong i.e. passed down via oral and physical transmission.
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I personally think that much of the vagueness comes around "trade secrets", which are basically just tricks on how to develop and use structure. The mechanics are the same, but the structure is the platform that these mechanics act on, IMHO.

    For example, when I uppercut or undercut, I "look" to the area that I would be pointing to with the striking hand (if I stuck my pointer finger out). This is a trick to help me remember the correct body alignment. It also is a trick to get the opponent to look at where I'm looking instead of where I'm at.

    In push hands I was taught the trick to peer through the center of my partner's chest as if I was piercing it with a laser. This is a trick to soften my touch and it can get the opponent to start sway back and forth. I'm not sure why it works, but it does often (not all the time).

    I think people try to analyze how to duplicate these things using complex mechanics, but really they aren't just physical, there is a mental aspect and maybe even spiritual aspect in them. The "trade secrets" or tricks just bring these all together without analyzing how they work.
  11. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Generally speaking I find that applications with movement and footwork, generate the force for me.

    Sometimes some refinement and study of the forces is required, but movement is the primary mechanism initiate any type of force.

    Sometimes it is my movement, sometimes the opponent(s), sometimes a combination.
  12. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The movements and combined timings certainly of my Taiji lineage and Baguazhang that I have worked with; are complex and take a long time to develop even to a basic level. 'Advanced' generally consists of doing basics better, so the mechanical aspects should not be dismissed too lightly.

    We also have 'secrets' - which are not secret - I suspect this is just how the words were translated from Mandarin/Cantonese into English; to describe intensifiers of contact quality of which 2 are vibration and cutting. They do not bring immediate results, but over time, visible results are tangible.

    A lot depends on your teacher i.e. we are all indoctrinated to some extent by our teachers. I try to be influenced by my teachers, but not indoctrinated, but this is quite tricky.
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    In Western boxing, stepping power is the greatest generator of force. Typically, the bigger the step, the more power. Bigger steps means you need more room and more room means you need better timing to pull it off.

    Nevertheless, I agree that movement and footwork generate the most power.
  14. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The physical and mental I buy into, but not the spiritual. At least I do not practise any spiritual training consciously.
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Me too, but spiritual could be defined as fighting spirit, which I do buy into.
  16. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Indeed fighting spirit is valid, forgot about that. It is the meditative spiritual that I do not consciously buy into. I know some folk who do, which is fine, it is just not my choice at least right now.
  17. embra

    embra Valued Member

    There are a few variations in PH like this and yes none of them work all the time. In general get them to commit too much in their movement/push - without unbalancing yourself - and either turn them round or drive straight through them.

    A softer touch makes it more difficult for the opponent to decode your intent, and this is where listening attentively and patiently for the over-commit, intent; to exploit.
  18. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    What is going on in your head while all this is happening ?
  19. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    for me? "die!!!", mostly :p
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I like Fish's reply.


    Well I haven't been laughed out of the Internal Martial Arts forum yet. Maybe it is a Tai Chi laugh. Same as a regular laugh, but in slow motion. :evil:

    For me, the mind needs to be freed so that it can make the important decisions, such as (in an overly dramatic situation) who lives or dies. For the mind to be freed, IMHO, you must be able to trust your structure and in your technique to get the job done. You must be freed from internal conflicts and trust your intuition. "Listening" is about your intuition, not reaction.

    If my mind is about anything, I try to make it awareness. Not only of an opponent's intentions but also of surroundings, in case escape is needed, a weapon is pulled, or multiple attackers engage.

    With so much going on, freeing the mind becomes even more important.

    There are some tricks used in training to aid in freeing the mind. Since the mind affects the body language, which affects structure, it is all related. One trick I was told was to peer on a point on the center of the opponent's chest and visualize heating it up so the blood boils. The one I prefer is to peer on the same point as if I had a laser. I like the latter because I like to look through the opponent. The point on the center of the chest, for example, is important because it is a point on the body that the opponent cannot move by turning their body. If you picked the shoulder, on the other hand, the opponent can turn to make the shoulder move away or towards you without actually changing the distance between you. In the center of the chest, either their whole body must move or they must sway back or forth to change the distance.

    There are other tricks such as concentrating on using my elbows to control the opponent's elbows. The engaging the elbows is probably the first thing I teach, but it leads easily to rigidness, which is not good in this context. The trick to peer through the center of the chest is one that can really help with softening the touch.

    There are some other tricks I've been taught, such as cutting in and out, which is done with wrist motion, etc.

    And in all of this, I'm kind of a novice with this stuff. I've more than 30 years in martial arts, but only really limited exposure to the finer points. Imagine someone spending 30 years just in this stuff, should be much better.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015

Share This Page