generating force

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by cloudz, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well.. I was going to post this in the "where does the power come from " thread but it's closed..

    Anyway here's the post:

    If people are genuinely interested in a different way to generate force, I would suggest checking out Mark Rasmus on Youtube. He explains the mechanics quite well of absorbing and releasing force. You see this kind of exercise in TCC all the time. The mechanics of releasing force against an incoming force are different to throwing a punch with whip like mechanics.

    People who say there is no different power generation couldn't possibly have done much of this kind of tai chi training or done much research on it, eg. first clip below.

    A word on Rasmus; he does use some terminology from the hermetic tradition as he has studied this in depth. I don't necessarily follow all his jargon the way he uses it, but it can all be mapped to other descriptive models/ paradigms.

    By all accounts he teaches this very well, and I think he has some good material to share - which he does. Worth checking out, he's not really like an Adam Mizner for example. Who will do all this cool looking demos with co operative partners with next to no teaching explanations. With Rasmus you still get the demonstrations, but you do get some decent information from him and drills.

    he has many clips these are just a couple:

    [ame=""]Fajin basics Mark Rasmus Aug 2013 - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Internal Strength Methods Mark Rasmus Chiang Mai April 2014 - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  2. baby cart

    baby cart Valued Member

    I've watched this without audio first, then with sound.

    Why is it that the other guy jumps at the force application? Not thrown back, but JUMPS back.

    Instead of having a vivid example of power generation dynamics, this smacks of Pavlov's conditioning.
  3. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I think he his trying to stay on his feet, because if he doesn't then he will fall rapidly backwards and land on the floor, potentially hurting himself.

    It's a natural reflex action. If you doubt that, then try to replicate what they are doing when you are the one being pushed, and see how easy it is to allow yourself to be pushed over without instinctively trying to stay on your feet. I think you'll find it quite difficult.
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I had another look and it didn't really look faked to me. His method works well and doesn't need to be faked in my opinion - having experimented with it myself. And to be honest looking at those two I really doubt Mr. Rasmus needs him to jump back for him.

    It's possible that after the first few times the receiver starts to anticipate slightly in that knowing what's coming adjusts and reacts accordingly. I think Johnno has it along the right lines - people want to exercise some level of control on what's going to happen to them.

    I think this is normal and happens in all kinds of technique training. I will often drill a takedown for instance and after a little while my partner will start to adjust and be able to control some of the outcome.

    How about try this - watch some more and understand the method he uses. Find a partner and try it out. See how it works - you have your answers, and by all means let us know how it goes. I personally found his method works nicely against an incoming push.
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Reverse that because people who claim it is markedly different to other methods couldn't possibly have experience outside the style because it isn't

    What taiji does have is tremendous refinement of the mechanic first then the.application follows. Other systems using similar mechanic - jujutsu and wrestling being obvious examples, though Dumog has it too - start with the grosser movement and fighting application and refine it as time goes on

    So in essence the difference is in the training methodology
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    So the mechanics he's teaching and using are used in boxing or Judo for example ?

    Show me one example of another style teaching body mechanics like this. Show me something that's even close to what he's teaching being taught to students of other styles. Should be a doddle right?

    Don't get the hump because you went OTT claiming "it's all the same". Clearly it isn't "all the same", get over it dude.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  7. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    This makes me puke in my mouth a little.
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Check the edit

    Remind me of your other experiences outside your art again - genuine question not a p/a aside
  9. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    So you are saying they teach it in JJ and wrestling and FMA, can you post an example of a teacher talking about this kind of body mechanic or showing it?

    As for my experience it's not the topic and I don't really appreciate anyone trying to turn it into one of those threads, I would kindly ask you to stick to the topic which is generating force and not make it about "the person" (you don't agree with).

    I could have no experience in anything at all - and if what you are saying is true it should be very easy for you to demonstrate it with some example clips that back up your claim. My experience is irrelevant to the discussion. I have posted some clips in which I have said show different mechanics to other styles or typical force generation methods found in them.

    If I am wrong about that, there should be plenty of clips that prove it. I would be happy to admit I am wrong, I just have not seen it myself yet; so let's see them if you don't mind.

    Personally I don't believe that people just start moving and using their body in these ways without being taught it explicitly.
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I probably wasn't, or if I had heard it I had forgotten. Now you mention it though, makes sense.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Hey Cloudz,

    Maybe I'm not understanding certain subtleties in the video you posted, but the mechanic doesn't look unique to me.

    From 9'30" in this video is footage from Greco-Roman wrestling. I see successful and not-so-successful application of the mechanic described in your first video. The difference in appearance is down to applying it on a resisting opponent, as far as I can see, also the head is generally kept lower because of the context of the competition format. There is more muscling, but I do see moments where they appear to be applying it in the same manner as the guy in your first video.

    [ame=""]Coach's Syllabus for Greco-Roman Wrestling - 15 Basic Skills - YouTube[/ame]

    What do you think?
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Thanks David and precisely the point I was making. I have been teaching it as "locking the chain" for over 20 years now - the alignment of the body so that the movement effects the whole body with minimal application (and the converse of "shock absorber" to minimise the effect of a technique being applied

    Nagato in action - a grosser principle but essentially the same bodily alignment


    Vu doing some Dumog and again very similar principles done at a larger scale. Not the humerus/tricep application - when this one is done now I barely move and it looks "chi esque"


    The legendary Billy Robinson - from the 2:40 or so mark on there are some arm drags employing a "reverse application" of the same principle
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I have posted 3 above which i found without even trying, and that does not include Davids video which show the same principle - I could easily have posted the "double hip" too

    Your other experience IS 100% valid because it woudl explain why you think the movements are not common across systems, especially if the teacher of said system was of the "balls before brains" approach....and as your opening gambit was "you cannot have experienced it" then the quid pro quo becomes even MORE relevant

    Now, show me the application UNDER PRESSURE of the mechanics in your video above....I think you will find the lines get even blurrier
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    "Locking the Chain" is a great description. Sounds exactly how it feels!
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Thanks.....I should trademark it!
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    And here's Mr. Rasmus himself talking about wrestlers, Judoka, weight lifters and squash players exhibiting good form. He couches his stuff in some weird terminology, but I generally agree with everything he says in this video, and I think many martial artists would find the aspects of structure he mentions familiar:

    [ame=""]10 Points of Structural Alignment Sifu Mark Rasmus Chiang Mai Thailand September 2012 - YouTube[/ame]
  18. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree with you 100% there. Most wrestlers would use "similar" power generation, they just don't talk about it, or make a big deal out of it. All wrestlers would treat "no brute force" as '"common sense".

    The "power generation" used in the following clip is very "internal (no brute force)".


    Whenever I see a clip just like OP presented,

    [ame=""]Fajin basics Mark Rasmus Aug 2013 - YouTube[/ame]

    I always like to ask the following questions.

    - Will this kind of power generation only work for "pushing" on the body?
    - Can you apply this kind of power generation for "punching" on the body, or "punching" on the head? Are there any clips for that?
    - Why do you want to push your opponent away (make distance further apart) if you can "take him down right under your knee (destroy his balance)"?
    - ...
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
  19. embra

    embra Valued Member

    John, what I see from your teacher "flying butterfly" - I think that was his anglicised nickname, is a small fellow using space, movement, timing and technique - all of which == 'mechanics'; to produce force to overcome much greater strength - you (I think) in the video.
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I look at power generation and ask, "Can the direction of the force be changed in an instant?"

    I think people can get caught up in the mechanics rather than the structure. Mechanics explains how something is performed, but structure is how the delivery system is built.

    People with weak structure tend to generate power very linearly... they might have great mechanics for generating power in one direction but in a real situation, this could leave them wide open if they miss. Hard style is associated with very linear force.

    The move from hard-style to softer style consists of moving towards being able to change the angle/direction and speed of the power. Softer style is associated with more bilateral force or the ability to adapt the force to the situation.

    The goal isn't purely for power generation, but should be for developing practical application.

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