general standards for SandC

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Dead_pool, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    But would there maximal jump and injury levels get better if they did,

    Im liking these figures, Im aiming for just bodyweight 3x 12 in everything at the moment, and then ill look at further progess later on (which wont be too far away for most of them)
     
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Psh. The reg has gone downhill ever since they raised the age limit.

    I got badged the day I was born. Midwife slapped me **** and I cried, "Who dares wins!"
     
  3. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I think at their size and with their levers their injury rates would go though the roof if they squatted heavy , and most seem to be able to dunk a ball without ever squatting heavy
    I honestly think the whole you must be able to squat x before trying an exercise is more to do with being an advanced lifter who needs a different stimulus to continue to improve compared to a beginner who will make improvements doing anything, its not injury prevention but being advanced enough to get something out of the exercise
     
  4. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    with basketball players the focus recently has been on improving jump landing mechanics (where injuries are likely to happen and is still the realm of the S&C coach)
    and single leg work to improve stability in the muscles surrounding the knee joint has been part of the diet for a long long time.

    on the point of progressions:
    my jump progressions are based on learning and einforcing olympic lifting mechanics while getting volume and the speed-strength end of the continuum (for certain training phases jumps are used more):
    Single leg hops (first proprioception)
    -> Vertical jumps (triple extension like a jerk)
    -> jumps from squat (triple extension from a folded position )
    -> jumps onto a box (triple extension and absorbing force in a semi folded position)
    -> jump on box with quick jump up at top (triple extension and fast recovery like a full clean)
    -> vertical jumps that land in a squat (triple extension with quick footwork like moving the feet in a clean)
    -> jumps from a box that land in a squat (absorbing force in case of a difficult recovery in the clean. this is rather rare in a training cycle because of high achilles stress/rupture potential)

    same with the 100 push ups thing by dave tate or any of the S&C coaches i've met - its about instilling proper mechanics to minimise risk and maximise gain out of any forms of exercise (risk:benefit)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2014
  5. seiken steve

    seiken steve golden member


    These are your minimum standards? someone who can dead lift 3xBW for 5, strict press BW for 5 but only bench their bodyweight?

    a 50bpm resting heart rate?

    I'm sorry but these are way out of wack.

    At my bodyweight tha'd be a orld record deadlift and a RHR of a mid to high level triathlete.

    I'm all for high standards, dont get me wrong, but this person must live in a lab.
     
  6. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    CRASSSFIT
     
  7. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    see, i was going to criticize the bench to ohp ratio, but i have actually pressed overhead more than i have benched. that i haven't tested a bench press max in almost a year is another matter :p (mainly because i don't bench except for the lulz once in a blue moon)
     
  8. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    The bench press is a useless exercise anyway, except in powerlifting (and only because it's a competitive lift). I chucked it in there for the hell of it.

    High level triathlete with a 50bpm RHR? Try closer to 40. Sure, sub 50 is technically the start of "athlete" territory, but there are plenty of BJJ blue belts who drill and spar regularly enough to hit this level. Heck, I know a housewife who runs several times a week and her RHR is 48bpm.
     
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    actually bench pressing is quite useful. it's a full body lift that develops tremendous strength in pectorals and triceps, which has carryover to anything in which they're used (in particular i've seen more than one mention here on MAP of bench-derived pectoral strength being useful for wrestling). what it doesn't have is specificity for punching, which is what everyone and their mother think they¡re working when they bench.

    i hate it, though, so down with the bench press! :D
     
  10. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Hey fusen, I kinda waited to talk obout this because I wasnt sure what everyone else was going to say and I kinda wanted to see before I said anything. It looks like the post is still manageable so Im going to write now.

    The word standard kinda has two meanings to me, first it could mean "standard " as in the general public uses it, or it could mean "stanard" as in a certain group has a high standard or a certain person has a high "standard".

    So lets take a look at one of my posts called "BB Test", there you will find a list of exorcizes that must me performed to standard at the time of BB testing at my school, notice the pull up section on requires five reps.

    Standards can be tricky for a variety of reasons, first if the bar is set too high you may not be able to maintain the standard, no one wants to be sub par lols at least not me. Set your standards at reasonable levels, not superhuman degrees of ability, your standard should basically say I wont get any more out of shape than this, IMO.

    Standards are often not fair to the disabled and the elderly or super young, so a good formula to use when setting standards for these people is the 25 percent rule, what ever the standard to pass is for everyone else disabled and age challenged people should only need to meet 25% of that. Sorry for the super post but I want to add a sample fitness scale that we use in Zanshin.

    Orange belt-pushups/10 in 2 min.- situps/15 in two minutes.

    green belt-pullups/1-situps20 in two min.

    purple belt-pushups/20 in two min.-situps/25 in two minutes

    blue belt-pull ups/3-situps/30 in two minutes

    Brown belt-30 push ups in two min.-situps/35 in two minutes

    Black belt-pullups/5-situps/40 in two minutes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2014
  11. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    This is crazy and unrealistic for about 95 percent of the population in one way or the other, mentally, physically, scheduel conflicts whatever. Professional soldiers and heavy laborers with years and years on the job dont have that kind of strength or endurance, that said I think its a kick ass list lols, Ive been in that shape before, I was a freakin murderer lols:yeleyes::yeleyes:, men women and babies feared me, and more women.::woo:
     
  12. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Any gains in strength are negated when you consider the side effects of benching - neglecting the muscles of the upper back for the sake of man cleavage (causing shoulder issues due to muscular imbalances), restricts shoulder ROM (abysmal thoracic mobility is a common symptom in zealous bench pressers), and causes a hunched over position (rounded shoulders and internally rotated arms).

    But if you're a competitive powerlifter who does tons of remedial exercises, knock yourself out. :p
     
  13. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    there was a lecture i saw by an Australian team coach saying that teams that dropped the bench press pre and in season saw a 300% increase in shoulder injuries in season

    judo and wrestling arent too far from rugby in terms of contact and injuries.
     
  14. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    My thought would be exactly why would I want to drop the bench press If I played an impact sport like foot ball, that makes no sense at all.
    In fact if I played foot ball I would have a minimum four hundred pound bench, seriously.
     
  15. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i wouldnt take it that far. like van zandt said, there are a lot of problems associated with bench pressing too much and not getting a good balance of back musculature.
     
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    all of that assumes you don't do any back work and obsess over bench pressing. no one mentioned anything about not doing any back work and obsessing over bench pressing.
     
  17. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Well I didnt wanna tell on myself but I guess I will here, I actually played on a rugby league in my mid twenties, at the time I had about a three hundred pound bench press, it sure made takeing tackles a whole lot easier, it was like an upper body shock absorber system, I would not stop exorcizeing my upper body during a league, insanity in my opnion.
     
  18. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Grapplers are better off doing push-up variations amd sledgehammer swings instead of bench press because these moves strengthen all muscles of the shoulder, while doing so through full ROM and in a standing position (much more specific to grappling than lying down).
     
  19. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    specificity usually translates to weakness, however. sport-specific training and general training are two different things, and both are important. bench pressing is not specific, but it's the single heaviest upper body lift that can be performed, so it has a place in general strength training. being strong all over makes you much harder to kill and generally more useful than having specific strength, whereas having both will have you at your most effective as then you'll be able to carry that strength over better than if youvwere just strong, and you'll actually have strength to carry over in the first place.
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    hell, i'd argue that grapplers are better off doing static and slow gymnastics ringwork, given the joint stability they require in addition to strength. i'm willing to bet that someone who can do an iron cross is a pain in the butt to armbar, much more so than someone with a 250kg deadlift.
     

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