i suppose you could argue that some people may not be awesome examples of their art, yet they are very capable of passing on information in an excellent way. and i think it's common knowledge that one may be amazing at their art, yet do not have the ability to teach, or communicate, with enthusiasm and that special touch.
I agree with the comments made above. You could have an instructor who may have been an awesome competitor and excellent fighter but if he lacks the ability to pass on his knowledge to his students then inevitably his skills as an instructor will be less than his skills of a fighter therefore making him/her a poor teacher.
This is interesting because I think it shows something about TKD. Go on to Bullshido, Sherdog, wherever and you will find many people bitching about those dishonest TKD scum and how they enjoy misleading the youth with all their mystical tales/etc. But the truth about TKD is that it is very rationale and sport oriented. We don't claim to have ki powers. The founders didn't claim to have supernatural abilities. Have you ever seen the video of Mas Oyama wrestling a bull? Go search for it on youtube, it is there. The poor bull is just minding his own business and then Oyama, who is a very impressive physical specimen, seizes the bull and starts wrestling with it. The entire time the bull looks like he is trying to GET AWAY. That bull is literally thinking, "Get the frick away from me man! What is your problem?" Then Oyama nobly raises his knife hand and we flash to a bull's horn falling to the earth. Note we never actually SEE him chop off the bull's horn with his bare hand. Choi probably could have created all sorts of legends about himself. Heck the Korean master of our organization probably could have told us all sorts of lies about his youthful prowess. But he didn't. He did, however, demonstrate jumping over people/things and breaking boards even into his 50s however. For some people that isn't enough. They need something mystical and magical. But I think it is one of the refreshing things about TKD.
Just a little bone to pick here, mysticism in martial arts is a big problem yes, but for TKD the problem usually is that it is exactly as you stated: it is sport oriented. When you have sport TKDers thinking they can fight, either by their own stupidity or by their instructors', that's when you have a situation. It should be etched into stone to take whatever a KMAer says about his own art with a grain of salt. Your point about Oyama is well taken, never did really think about that clip till now, and he WAS Korean, so perhaps he did fake it.
I've got a feeling that one of my earlier posts on this thread points out that Jon Bluming (founder of Kyokushin Budokai) states that the Bull is not actually a Bull at all. He claims it was an ox - a terrified one at that.
Yeah, Bluming's very anti- the whole Oyama as a superhero stories. I believe he said that the bull/ox had its horns pre-sawed so they'd snap more easily. I think there seems to be two sides to Oyama - the martial artist (who was very successful and won many fights) and the showman (who took part in pro-wrestling matches in the states, fought bulls and karate-chopped beer bottles).
Alexander and moosey - I read your earlier post. When I saw Rag's post about how other founders of other martial arts had these legendary powers I just had to comment anyway. Call it a slight bit of keyboard rage. Actually I've had Kyokushin guys tell me the same thing (that they don't buy all the bull fighting stories). I have nothing but respect, btw, for Kyokushin. And I've seen the videos where Oyama breaks boards/tiles with that amazing punch of his. That impressed me as all heck. Especially since they were hand-held! I hope you realize how blatantly racist your post sounds? Koreans/those who practice Korean arts have a greater propensity to lie/exagerrate? Heh heh heh. From my experience the problem is not with the practitioner 'thinking he can fight' the problem is with how people outside martial arts view things like the black belt. They have watched too many movies. When someone does something that is physically oriented, like TKD, they get a good chance to judge their abilities. Just like when you are a kid and you imagine yourself running faster than the wind, but then go out for track and they find out the truth. In my experience most TKDers have their heads on pretty straight. Some TKDers are awesome athletes, some less so. And there are so many variables in a fight...some of these negate athletic ability anyway. I've seen the full spectrum of things going down 'on the street'. In our organization we had middle-aged man who launched a guy with a knife with a front kick by his groin. We've had a 16 year old girl hit a guy who tried to assault her late at night with a spinning sidekick and then run. When she looked back he was still clutching his ribs and writhing on the ground even blocks later. But we've also had good tournament fighters, bigger guys who were athletic, get sucker punched and pummeled. It isn't so much the art's fault but the judgement of those who have been involved at the time.
Well what I was getting at is that the founders (kwan leaders) and their top senior students had a propensity to spread white lies to make their arts seem more credible. And yes. Koreans lie. I know because I am one. Sometimes I can't even trust myself. HAH. Hrmmm lemme expand on what I stated before. As a longtime member of Bullshido, which you referenced earlier, in our quest against charlatans, the majority of TKD's problems weren't mysticism. From the McDojo side - the business side of it - TKD usually has overcharging/insane contracts with no way out, etc. From the Bullshido side - what is actually taught as TKD - there are alot of sport TKDers who think they can fight. When they teach their sport skills to their students and tell them they can fight, they are putting their students in danger. It's like handing them a sword and telling them they will be fully prepared for a duel with pistols. You must know some nice TKDers. Most of the ones I have known were cocky - which is not always a bad thing, athletes need to be bred to think they're the best - but they are cocky to the point where they overestimate their skills and expand the scope of their application. And that is dangerous for themselves and their students. I agree that it is not the art's fault. It is the practitioners.
I've been following this thread and have my own thoughts on the subject matter. I have some good connections in the TKD world that link to General Choi's early instructors and am lucky to hear their thoughts on certain things. I have heard things I would never discuss except with those that told me in the first place. Why? Out of respect, not because he is the founder of Taekwon-do, or the art that I practice, but because he has passed away - its that simple. All I really got to say on this matter is that what does it matter now? He left an art, practiced and enjoyed by millions in one guise or another. Even if he wasnt the best at his art, his senior students do the talking for him. Cuz D'Amato wasnt a rated boxer, but he trained one of the best in the world - Mike Tyson! Perhaps the Generals real skills wernt so much the art, but the teaching of it! That said, from what Ive read during my research for the book, was as an exponent, even pre-TKD he was pretty formidable for the era. But like I said, what does it matter now! Like the rest of us, he was only human, he made mistakes like us all, but as with all that has past, lets remember the good bits first. lay this thread to rest like it should be. Stuart
Heh heh...we're all human and we all lie. I didn't mean to imply that Koreans didn't. Well it is all a matter of what you're exposed to. Nearly all the TKDers I know, of course they are mostly from the same organization that I belong to, have a no contract policy. You don't like it, you quit. And almost all of them have day jobs. They aren't getting rich off of TKD. Most of them, as a matter of fact, probably feed the school with their wallet rather than the other way around. Not that there is anything wrong with actually making money from something. I mean I make money in my 'real' job, why shouldn't others? But, on the teaching side, if I make some extra rather than go in the hole I call it a success. I'm glad you brought up pistols and such. Because the world we live in HAS guns and knives. Even great athletes like Genki Sudo (wrong place at the wrong time) and Lee Murray can get stabbed. We don't live in a perfect world and those that promise that they will be able to take on five ninjas like in the movies are misleading people. But I don't think that is the case. And if it is that is a mental problem with the individual and not the art. You know what I think is a bad mentality some people get from martial arts? The culture of paranoia. This is where you get so obsessed about the unlikely scenario that you will have to defend yourself 'on the street' that all of your thoughts revolve around it. I've even heard it taken so far that people say things like, "Well if you were attacked in a stairwell it is better to know art X because they have better hands/a better clinch/etc/etc/etc." A fricken stairwell! Now we're so paranoid we're not only worried about the unlikely event of being attacked but we're compounding the unlikelyness of it by imagining an unusual location. My point: a recreational martial artist spends three to five hours a week working out. Does that prepare him for every contingency? Does that equate him to a professional athlete who is a prize fighter? Of course not. In a perfect world they would get all the training of a prize fighter. But we don't live in a perfect world and these practitioners haven't taken a vow of poverty/celibacy. They are trying to balance their lives between work, family, other hobbies, and martial arts. For the time that they invest they get a return which is better overall fitness some applicable techniques for self-defense and recreation. All these things give them a better chance of successfully defending themselves and that is all that can be expected. Again it is who you are exposed to. You know I bought some Tatami mats from an aikido school recently. They were very arrogant when I picked them up. It was as if *I* was inconveniencing them by giving them money while helping them to get rid of their old flooring. Really ****ed off the wife and myself. It would be easy to say, "Aikido guys are all a bunch of arrogant bastards..." But that would be stereotyping an entire group based on one experience with a couple of them. One of my neighbors growing up was an aikido teacher and I've had neighboring aikido classes to my own class (essentially a competitor). Those guys, however, are great guys. Humorous, likable, humble, etc, etc. My point is you shouldn't dismiss an entire group just because of a couple 'bad ones'.
You must not be WTF affiliated. Or if you are, you're luckier than I. I'd more or less agree with everything in this chunk of your post. That is the reality, yes. The problem is those who would claim what they teach provides otherwise. Which in the realm of Bullshido.net, is like an everyday occurance, not only with TKD, but with many other systems as well. After my experience with TKD, I thought/hoped mine was an isolated event. But after coming to martial arts forums and also just meeting many martial artists over the last decade, I've found that its alot more than just a "couple" and that the stereotype is generally true. I find the converse - like its a "couple good ones" rather - like mav and monk. If you're not surrounded or been exposed to the dark side, well good for you and your training, you've been blessed. But as far as ITF/WTF goes, I'd have to argue.
I haven't been discussing the General, been in an offside convo with aaron, for which I apologize to the OP for half derailing the thread, but why shouldn't he be discussed? His personal eating habits, sleeping patterns, what car he drove - yeah things like that... don't really matter now and it's not really our business anyway. But anything he did for the art which is questionable - I'd argue it is fair game to discuss, especially for those in his system. This would fall into the realm of history, for which if we used your logic, we'd never study things that happened in the past. In today's martial arts world you have people claiming all sorts of stuff, and we as practitioners need to keep on our toes to protect the integrity of the systems we practice and their respective heritages. It's turning a blind eye to the actions and statements of notable martial artists from the past that allows for things like "2000 year Korean lineages" and "amazing chi powers" to propagate and become the accepted norm. General Choi the martial artist - for those in TKD, we all trace roots back to him in some form or another... it's like telling kids not to talk about their father.
I'm not. I was a kid taking TKD when it was first accepted into the Olympics. I remember being very disappointed when our Korean Master decided against transitioning into Olympic style. He always said, and still says, it would change the art for the worse and make it so that every school revolved around one or two olympic hopefuls while the rest of the school suffered. At the time I thought it was a bunch of crap. But maybe he steered us in the right direction. Ha ha... Don't get me wrong. I've seen plenty of what I term as 'wackos' in my martial arts experience. Guys who claim they have ki power and who could use it to make me 'very uncomfortable' if they wanted to. Others who have told me that there are martial artists who live in the mountains of asia who can jump and land on the rim of a basketball hoop. Okay....why are they hiding these guys? Get them on a team with Yao Ming and dominate the NBA! Make some real money! And there are the TKDers who will argue to death that there are Olympic TKDers who could dominate in the UFC and Pride but they just don't 'want to'. I just got to laugh and shake my head. I did MT/Kickboxing in my youth. TKD is an EXCELLENT base to transition into kickboxing. But MAJOR adjustments need to be made by the practitioner to deal with the addition of the low kick/etc. My belief is that the things we exclude in our sparring gives longevity to the recreational practitioner. But if I was preparing for a MT match/MMA match I'd definitely put those low kicks into the mix. They are very effective. And almost everyone in the organization I belong to agrees with this. But like I said...I only know what I'm exposed to.
Hi guy's, I've just finished reading through the 5 pages of this thread as I did'int want to post until I had a sense of the whole lot!! You have to look at Gen Choi in 4 ways. A Martial Artist A Martial Arts Instructor A politican A Martial Arts Founder A Martial Artist Choi has claimed to have been taught Taekyon by Master Han IL Dong, who was his calligraphy instructor. The next time he came into contact with Martial Arts was training Shotokan Karate in which he claimed to have gained a 2nd dan under Funakoshi. But he mainly trained with a Korean teaching Shotokan by the name of Kim to 1st dan with 2 years training and later on at the University of Tokyo where he gained 2nd dan. Looking at these two arts in theselves it would lead one to think that this man could at least kick and punch to some level!! This basic training seemed to have done him great physical stead (ref the pic of him doing a twisting kick and sidekick) and I'm sure he was quite able to perform Karate and early TKD well!! A Martial Arts Instructor To be a Martial Arts Instructor one does not have to be the best at everything!! Great fighters do not always make the best coaches and great coaches don't always make great fighters!! Also most of the early Oh Do Kwan members were ex-Chung do Kwan students of Lee Won-Kuk, who had joined the liberation army and were put in the command of Gen Choi. So they had already amassed some skills! Nam Tae Hi is a point in example of this!! I remember reading an interview with Nam Tae Hi were he stated that Gen. Choi did not actually take part in much of the training of the Oh Do Kwan troops. As he was a high ranking General it was above his post?? So he was a technical Martial Artist which is'int totally a bad thing!! A Politican He was certainly very active in the liberation of his country from the Japanese and a very close relationship to the early leaders of South Korea. His leadership and promotion of his style of TKD can only be praised as a public relations master piece! The only down fall may have been trying to be over friendly with North Korea and bending a bit too much for so little?? Then there is the situation that James Choi found himself in!! I would say it is quite easy to see that he was not doing such actions without the backing of his father?? Also playing the power game within the KTA was a big mistake and if things had went another way who knows where TKD would be now?? A Martial Arts Founder So finally we come to the main reason the world knows his name!! What did he actually do?? Did he add in dynamic Korean kicks?? No! The front, side, turning, cresent and jumping kicks were already in Shotokan Karate by the time Choi was learning it and would have been practiced by the Chung Do Kwan and Ji Do Kwan etc! It was other instructors under Choi that have been given credit for adding in spinning kicks, twisting kicks and axe kicks. What he did do was chop up the Kata taught in the Shotokan and put them back together (did'int try too much with Won Hyo Tul if you compare it to Heian Nidan??) in a way he thought was nice! Which could then be classed as being Korean! Even at that, Nam Tae Hi and some other early members of the Oh Do Kwan were also to develop some the the forms themselves!! In this stage Nam Tae Hi was doing most of the physical testing of the material they had come up with!! So What Do I think? I think that he was as much a political leader as he was a Martial Artist (maybe even more so?). He inspired some of the biggest names in Martial Arts today to reach out and spread their countries and personal abilities! The seminars he gave were said to be dissapointing to many, and this is a pity and may have been due to this early technical approach to his Karate and should have been maybe holding Q&A seminars on all of TKD with more able Masters doing the flashy demos for him?? One thing that he did do is create a break in the mind of TKD'ka to Shotokan Karate. In that many TKD people don't see or want to see the real physical link to Japanese Karate. Most of the time this is done without even seeing any Karate Kata and training?? I know it really struck me how much the Heian Katas were like so many Tuls in the Chang Hon and then to see other Kata have so many common movements that someone may not be able to tell the difference if not for the small hand position changes!! Which brings me to the tuls themselves!! The applications of many of the movements are quite mad! I remember the worried look on my instructors face when telling me the application for U-shaped block, W-shaped block and even twin-forearm block in Won Hyo and so on... Chang Hon TKD is a form of Korean Karate as much as Tang Soo Do is. General Choi was not the first one to teach it his way, the Korean Kwans were teaching their version of the Heian Kata as Pyung-Ahn, and Tekki as Chul Ki before this! All with slight variations which they could also claim to be Korean!! I see General Choi Hon Hi as the founder of Chang Hon TaeKwon-Do. The man that brought the name Tae Kwon Do to the KTA. Who founded the International TaeKwon-Do Federation, and done as much as he could to promote his style!!
You sure don't post often Paulol, but if the other 93 are like this one, articulate, well reasoned, informative, then all I can say is... wow! Good stuff.
I've been away from this site for some time kwang gae! The rest of my posts would have been up to two years ago?? Thank you for your comments on my comments It was hard to cut it down as I found myself running away with myself
Sorry, though I noticed the similey, I fail to see the connection to the first post in this thread. The book would have come out even if General Choi hadnt past away yet. My only reason/s for posting were: a. The wine I had that evening b. Its better to look forward than backwards c. Everyone has had the discussion mentioned before and with no video footage, everything is really circumstantial - and will go around in circles! Stuart
