Gender and Genitals - Who has the better deal?

After watching all the Hollywood films where chicks kick butt, or ordinary women protect themselves against men through groin strikes (even Spiderman II serves as a good instance of that), I began to wonder about something. I searched old archives on the MA forums to see the differences in vulnerability between male and female genitalia. This sums (Briefly!) what I learned

1. The breasts can be an "ouch" spot, and some women report severe symptoms (dehabilitating pain and even vomiting) from strikes. However, this seems particular to some women, especially dependent on lactation or time of month. Many women (especially in the SCA) claim to have taken breast hits for years with no extra pain or dehabiliating effects. So they are not the most reliable targets for special strikes. Men, of course, do not see this as a vulnerable area on themselves.

2. The male groin is obviously a major impact area of concern. Men can die from hits there, it is easy to incapacitate someone by striking them there even if it is not 100% reliable. The pain is comparable to childbirth, PMS craps, and kidney stones - men often chringe or experience "sympathy" pains just from seeing it happen to another man. The same does not appear to occur to a similar degree among women. I mean, ask a man who's taken a good hit to the groin whether he'd want to repeat the experience or be shot in the foot, and see what he chooses. Now ask a woman.

3. The female groin is a spot that hurts to get hit in. The question is whether it hurts as much and is as effective as the male groin. There are reports of female deaths from strikes there - though this may be from the pelvic bone being smashed. It may even be easier to damage the female pelvic bone than the male because of the different "design" (you could say). However, the vulnerable nature of hanging internal organs unprotected by bone muscle or fat among men makes it 1. easier to hit the male genitalia and 2. more painful in general. (Men are more likely to double over, roll around, cry, vomit, go into shock or unconsiousness, etc... than women are). At the same time, a blow to the female ovaries is said to be extremely painful, on par with a testicle kick. (But this is _much_ harder to hit correctly.)

Women 'instinctively' protect their faces while men 'instinctively' protect their groins. This tells us something. (Though is any of that socially conditioned?) Jocks for men are common and reccommended while women's groin protectors tend to be a little more unknown. That also tells us something (besides women's less frequent participation in contact sports).

So, the question I'm getting at is who gets the better end of the deal?

Let's look at two opposing arguments:

A. Because women have breasts, they in fact have to protect 2 special areas: breasts and groin. Men only have to protect their groin. In fact, counting the ovaries separately, women have to protect 3 special areas.

VS

B. Groin strikes on men are so dehabilitating that they are a staple of self-defense courses, while men are not as likely to strike women there. Let's face it, a strike to a man's groin will keel him over worse than anything one typical strike will do to a women's genitalia. You'd need a well-aimed piercing kick against a woman to approximate the same effect. This is also demonstrated by the fact that most women have no idea what a good hit to the groin (man or woman) can do, while a male with external genitalia will find it out sooner or later.

What if a 115 lb man faced a 115 lb untrained woman? Pound for pound, wouldn't she have the advantage because he has such an accessible "self-destruct" button? Couldn't you get a psychological advantage by keeping a man on the defensive while you don't have a groin as easy to hit, knowing that a strike could cause him pain that he would remember for the rest of his life? Isn't it easier to incapacitate a man in a single strike, while a blow of similar strength directed against a woman would not be as effective?

What do you think? Which tradeoff is better - a sometimes vulnerable spot (breasts) combined with a second painful but manageable splot (female groin) or one major ouch centre that can knock everything out but is easier to defend that two separate spots?

(And I don't want to get too philosophical, and you might want to remove this question if its too off-topic, but don't you think it's ironic that the male sex, which tends to have larger size, longer limbs, and bigger muscles, also has a major nerve centre hanging right beween two goal posts [legs]?)

 

I don't think it's that hard to decide. Most would probably agree that the male is worse off, since men don't kick women's groins or punch their breasts.

Btw, no offense. Funny thread. Where did you get your research from? Can we see some of the websites?

 

Yeah.... but after enough hits in the groin we don't feel it anymore I HOPE TO GOD IT NEVER HAPPENS TO ME!

 

ouch thats all that needs to be said. in any fight a nice clean shot to the groin will drop most men. women don't have this problem. so i think that would give them a slight advantage if the two people are equal in strength and abilites and weight.

but when yea think about it. a shot at the eyes, the bridge of the nose, or any spots like that can disable or atleast stun an oppoent. so there are other stops to him a person.

 

To the person who requested findings, I can't give you everything at once, but I have a long summary of some of it, much of it from right here so you can check for yourself. Obviously, it isn't scientific, with no real samples and mostly anecdotal. The only scientific evidence I could go on relates to pain studies, and there's scant data on that I can find, I forgot where I put the old stuff. So here goes:

Thread: Question for Female MA'ists (Do women need groin protection?)
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10529

Findings:
-Many women reported that they did not feel the need for groin protection, but felt that men should wear it

Thread: It's official, groin shots are useless.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30297

Thread: Groin Shots against women
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3251
Much discussion on this issue, worth looking at for this topic

Findings:
-Some women, such as Spooky in particular, or Little China, make mention of extremely dehabilitating, even long-term groin pain from strikes
-Note that since this thread was about groin shots against women, it is likely to overrepresent women who had a painful experience
-Men contributed stories of their groin hit incidents, and the high amount of pain involved. Some men, however, claimed that a hit to the groin is not the most painful experience of their lives, and some even claimed that they felt less pain than others (it wasn't even dehabilitating) when hit there.

Thread: Female Protection!
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26080

Findings:
-More women complaining of groin shocks and the need for female protection
-However, some MA schools have a 0% protection rate among women (which is not likely the case for the men) This ties in interestingly to other threads (e.g. question for female MA'ists) where women adopt a "better safe than sorry" attitude as "one day" it might happen. I think it is likely that men tend to adopt groin protection earlier than women do, suggesting that the male groin is easier to strike effectively (accidentally or not) and thus more likely to cause a person to buy protection after a negative experience.
-One anecdote recalled how a guy had his *berries* literally kicked right out by accident in schoolyard horseplay

Thread: It's official, groin shots are useless.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30297&page=1&pp=15&highlight=groin

Findings:
-1 poster began the thread with an anecdote of how a groin strike to a man failed to topple him
-Many posters came on to say that groin strikes were in fact effective
-The degree of discipline and pain tolerance, as well as adrenaline, appeared to be a factor
-One good point was that groin shots were effective even if they didn't end the fight immediately

Google Groups Threads (you can search these yourself)

"Wanted to get some Opinions"
-Breast shots hurt less than groin shots on women (unless she is breastfeeding)

"Cheap Shots"
-One woman reports groin shots hurt, but not as much as men. Also, direct thuds to the breast don't hurt much. But twising, etc... does as well as flatenning. (like while being pinned)

"Effectivness of Self-Defense"
-Some street reports of ineffective groin strikes against male attackers

"Chi Sao and Women"
-One women reports how grappling can be painful to the breasts, however she fears techniques directed against the groin less than her male counterparts

"female warriors"
Joe ponders this:
"Personally I've always thought that if females were trained just as much as
males in MA (or in hurting people since that is what I'm really talking
about) that they would win (Mod size differences. I still think that
really big people will beat up really small people for the most part). I
guess I consider the groin too damn exposed and really vital to concentrate
on defending if you don't want to end up curled into the fetal position
suppressing the urge to vomit while your opponent stands there wondering
where to kick you next."

"How destructive is a groinkick?"
-Men answer this question

"Attack to the Groin" (female)
-Women respond that groin attacks hurt, though perhaps not as much as for men. Breasts are sensitive, though maybe depending on the time of month.

"Women's Self Defense"
Dee.Dee: "I for one would be able to stand the pain of a groin kick easily, it doesn't really hurt me at all. I think it's the same with most women."

"Ouch! Groin Kick"
-Discussion on the pain from male groin kicks, female groin kicks, how to attack the ovaries, and more
-Women seem surprised when kicked in the ovaries; shocked and stunned. Since this kick is likely similar to a testicle kick, it shows that it may truly be a new experience for most women.

"Women better at fighting than men?"
-Posters say that anybody can use groin kicks to take down either sex

"Why is Grappling inferior?"
-Inconsistency of groin shots on men

"Ladies' chest protection- Vanora" [rec.org.sca]
-In this interesting thread, women debate over whether shots to the groin hurt unusually. One woman suggests that her groin is well padded. A few women shrug off the effects of breast shots. The women suggest that male groin strikes are more painful.

"Fighting Injuries, worst" [rec.org.sca]
-Another interesting SCA thread where women and men complain of the pain from groin strikes, only one women (same one as last thread) claims that women need neither breast nor groin protection.

"women warriors" [rec.org.sca]
-Women SCAers debate the pain of groin strikes and whether or not protection is warranted

"Men, cups, and the rules" [rec.sport.fencing]
-Do men need cups? (Yes) Do women need breast protectors? (Maybe)

"Protection" [rec.sport.fencing]
-2 women argue that breast strikes don't hurt that much

"People wearing cups..." [rec.sport.paintball]
-Men discuss the need to wear cups

"Self Defense (Groin shots)"
-Men discuss whether groin shots are best for stopping rapists

"What causes more pain? Mammaries or testicles?"
http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=191139&st=0
-Extensive

"Hapkido Chick"
-Self-defense story

"Women in Martial Arts?"
-Nice self-defense story about June Castro, involving a groin kick
See also the following links for more stories about women (often little girls) ending fights with one or two moves
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=28&Number=286049&page=0&fpart=2
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/23/national/main601627.shtml
http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/010497/principalattack.html
and also the rec.martial-arts thread "Women martial artists -- What are you looking for in a MA school and have you found it?" post by Jennifer S. Ouellette
There was also a story I read in the local paper where an 18-year old male mouthed off to a 25+ year old female until she booted him in the groin. He went to the hospital complaining of pains.

My Conclusions:

-The common consensus around male groin pain and dehabilitation from strikes need not be challenged, except in that some disciplined individuals can take it and keep on going (though often to much soreness afterwards, even immediately after the fight)

-Many females feel little or no need for groin protection, almost certainly shrugging off groin protection more than males do. This may be from less participation in the worst contact and grappling forms of combat, or from reduced vulnerability to groin strikes.

-Females can experience male-like pain from being hit in the groin. However, this is less frequent than incidents among males, and may even be particular to individuals. Shot placement is probably much more important in acheiving these effects.

-The breasts are an inconsistent spot. Some women report no special pain there. Others report extreme pain, worse than groin injury. This is dependent on individual characteristics, time of month, and lactation.

-Even if a man is able to "take" a hit to the groin, he is almost always still fighting in pain, perhaps delayed or distracted or slowed down. And after the fight he is bound to be sore.

Question: If a man could bring only one piece of protection what would it be? What about for women? Aside: Does a big tough man actually need to bring more protection than a woman to combat?

Question: Don't the "fair fight" Marquis De Queensbury rules favor men with upper body strength while the no kicking and no below the belt rules disadvantage flexible women with high lower body strength who could kick groins?

P.S. Just for giggles, this guy's made a funny satire of old defense how-to books
link removed as inapporiate & violates TOS

To the poster who suggested that all other things being equal, a woman would have a slight advantage: What are the implications of this? The "weaker sex" has been subdued for centuries. Is this from lack of training thanks to different domestic roles, interference from childbearing and menstrual cycle, etc... Because if all other things being equal a woman has a slight advantage... (Perhaps we are negating other factors like bone brittleness, etc...)?

 

This is why I personally prefer to use a side-on stance rather than the typical front-on stance often (but not always) used in Boxing, Judo and Wing Chun.

I think that men certainly have a disadvantage from the vulnerability of our genitals.

 

i beg ti differ - i got a serious toe-in-the-groin recently which dropped me in a second, i had tears streaming down my face for ten minutes and i couldnt walk properly for an hour or so!

I think the male genitals are just easier to damage, what with all that dangling.

 

I've in free sparring accidentally hit a womans....

..breast but only lightly and not knowing I did as I was aiming for her lower chest area (she only told me later !)But I agree with blade: no man would ever dare go for a womans breasts or groin area out of respect while I do know that women seem to instinctively go for a mans groin if they happen to be attacked as they are aware its the most vulnerable area-and I was hit once in that area as well in free sparring even though she was meant to hit me between the legs but lower down.

I think in a real fight men would know a womans vulnerable areas are her breasts and groin but also not attack her. Unless he is really vicious ! And I think in points scoring MA's matches no man and woman ever fight together.
(unless its a grading)

Christian

 

Actually, I think by that assumption there are plenty of vicious men out there. I'm not sure whether a male aggressor in general would have any hesitation striking a woman's breasts or genitals. (From an SD perspective)

 

Forgive my cynicism, but it could be argued that any number of physiological differences can be inflicted with varying amounts of damage and pain.

I would imagine that any area with a larger number of nerves (such as the genitals) is going to hurt plenty when struck properly.

The key to the arguement is the difference between a strike to the genitals against a groin strike.

 

Advantage of male genitals; men dont get pregnant.

We win.

 

I dare you to say that to a woman's face. :Angel:

 

I think I need to enhance my skill in the area of grappling a lady's breasts. That's what I think. Yes.

 

I dont generally think men attack woman in such places unless they are rapists to be honest heh.

But yes, the womans pelvis is often more vulnerable mainly due to it sometimes being in two pieces so it can expand during childbirth (hence how you can tell a skeleton is a womans).

 

Been there...in tight, took the knee full on...
I choose the bullet.

 

Are you (well, at least seems to me) involved in a personal research project on the cause & effect of such a "deal"?

Considering this was your first post here on MAP, I am quite intriqued as to the nature of your interest in this area of discussion.

 

Gender

But honestly I have seen women dropped hard and in a LOT of pain from well placed strike.They were rising kicks in the groin that some of the other women were talking about.And these women had know idea how bad it hurt until they had a direct strike like that.And with that they decided to use protection.And the womens pubic bone is smaller than a mans and it is not a hard target one a women to hit and if it is cracked it is majorly dangerious to a women.And if a main artery is ruptured in the female groin it is also very serious.And as far as men getting hit there more maybe because men are in more contact sports than women?But a friend of mine who works in the E.R. is starting to see more injurys in the female groin.And some of the women were hurt in the vulva from snowboarding?But I know a hard strike to the female strike groin is very dangerios after reading medical studys about it and talking to my medical friends about it.

 

who has better deal

WOW odd thread I must say?I don't think anybody has a better deal what ever that maybe I just know it IS very dangerious.The immense pain folded me up like an old lawn chair on the floor and the pain that was radiating from my groin seemed to affect my whole body from a hard direct strike. But even a not too hard direct strike can stun ya with pain and cause you to step back for a bit.And I to have seen other women hurt badly from a groin strike.But it comes really down to how hard and accurate a strike is.

 

HUMM.... You never know with some guys?