Genbukan Bujinkan xxxkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kat, Apr 3, 2002.

  1. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Could someone give me a breif overveiw of how and why the 3 groups emerged?
    From what I understand they all teach the same stuff but the way they teach is different,would that be correct?
    Where does Hatsumi fit in relation to the other kans?
  2. ninjabumon

    ninjabumon New Member

    Hi guy,
    Cut and dry, here it is. Hatsumi is the Soke of the 9 schools he teaches. Tanamura was a student of his but claims otherwise. He trained with Sensei Hatsumi for many years and is his cousin from what I know. He runs the Genbukan. Manaka runs the Jinenkan. He runs his dojo his way as well. He was a Senior student of Hatsumi's also.
    I have trained in all 3 organizations at one time or another. I train in the Bujinkan only now because of a promise I made and asking Shiraishi Sensei last March to be my teacher. He is a Shihan as well.
    My feelings on each is mixed. I have met bad and good in all 3 schools. Find one and stick with it. That is my best advice. Forget the politics.
    Country Ninja,
    Tracy Crocker
  3. Thomas Vince

    Thomas Vince New Member

    Country Ninja,
    Some time I would like to talk with more about Stephen Hayes and some his student's. I have a relationship with Ninjitsu that runs deep in Kenpo practice and it has to do with the wearing of the black gi ( to keep it simple right now) but it symbolized evil, death, and bruising. Now I know that modern Ninjitsu has been trying to overcome this idea but the bottom line is that it will always be the "stealer in" or the assassin that motivates the ninja? Update me when you can.
  4. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Thanks for the reply,
    I understand what you mean by politics,even down here in Oz they bitch and whinge about each other.
    I take that they all teach the same thing then?Just in a different method,would that be correct.
    I am interested in jioning and trying it,but I am finding that it is coming down to personality of Instructors and fellow students.Emphasis in training also seems to differ from suburb to suburb even within the same kan.
    One other point I am constantly told that the best experience is to go over and train in Japan for a period(by a Bujinkan rep)which he says is totally different to the training I will receive over here.
    Why such a difference?
    Thanks for the replys
  5. ninjabumon

    ninjabumon New Member

    Answers to Questions for Thomas Vince and Kat about Ninjutsu

    Lets get Kat first,
    Kat, You were right. Everyone has their own method for teaching the system. Some of them focus on Basics, some on Ryu's (Schools) some on ther things. In the end, it is still Ninjutsu or Ninpo. Training in Japan is good. I recommend everyone for it. Is it different, well yeah! The headmasters of these systems live there except for one. Does it mean people who live there will be better? No it doesn't. It all comes down to the heart of the person. Hope this helps. Good luck finding training.
    Next lets get Thomas Vince,
    As far as Stephen Hayes is concerned, he is just one person of many who went to Japan. Steven knows alot. He is more than compentant enough with his skills. Have others surpassed him? Yes. Steven does his own twist on Ninjutsu called Toshindo. Is it Ninjutsu? Well, some of it. He calls it a better system of using ancient skills in Modern Day. Do I agree? No. Many of us could go off and open up our own organizations on the art. To me it is easy to adapt these skills to modern times. It is about Perception.
    As far as your perception of Ninjutsu, it is way off. Some Ninja held offical offices and titles within the government of the Samurai. Some Samurai actually became Ronin and trained in Ninjutsu. Ninja's created alliances. Much like NATO or the British SAS today. That doesn't mean the Military are modern Ninja. They aren't. As far as history goes, History was written by historians. The Ruling sanctions said, "Write it this way, or Die!" You just can't always believe History books. Some Ninja's in ancient days were trained in in stealthy skills. In those days, you had to be. Do we do it today? We train. We focus more on protection of yourselves and others more than being Stealthy. As Takamatsu use to say, " Don't worry about some things. In times of turmoil, you will find a way." By the way, I live 3 hours from you. You should come and train some, if you like. Hope this helped.
    Country Ninja,
    Tracy Crocker
  6. Solane

    Solane New Member

    Hi all

    I would like to add to Ninjabumon (Tracy Crocker) Comments a bit.
    I have been very lucky in finding good instructors, and as Ninjabumon says there are good and bad in each dojo and organization.

    One of my Instructors has gained a 5th Dan in both the Bujinkan and Genbukan. This is how he explained the 2 different organizations and their students to me, this is simplified and general so don't jump down my throat if you believe different, as there are exceptions all the time.

    Tenamura is Hatsumi's cousin and was his student at Takamatsu's Dojo. At some point they both fell out and now Tenamura says he never trained with Hatsumi and he says he never trained Tenamura.
    Hatsumi started to reduce the number of techniques & kata taught from the Densho to weed out ones that were no longer useful and to refine the systems, to what we know today and to focus on the way the techniques interact together.
    Tenamura did not agree with this and continued to teach all the techniques & kata as they had traditionally been taught to him, although he did eventually reduce the number of techniques & kata taught in the Genbukan (supposedly to make it easier for westerners to learn the system) but not to the same extent as Hatsumi in the Bujinkan.
    So the Genbukan student is more traditional in his techniques & kata and may know more than the Bujinkan student, but the Bujinkan student is more likely to better understand how to adapt and combine the techniques & kata known.
    The danger is taking both systems to the extreme, where you know so many that you are master of non or know so few that you do not have enough to cope with each situation. Or that you are unwilling to adapt techniques & kata to the situation at hand leaving yourself unable to adapt, or so use to adapting that you are not sure which techniques & kata to use.
    You need a balance between the two. A good number of traditional techniques & kata and the ability to adapt and improvise when needed. But to adapt you need a good understanding of the techniques & kata you know.

    This is how it was explained to me and what he tried to teach me.

    Going to Japan is worth it as their knowledge is greater as the Japanese Shihans that have received their Menkyo Kaidens are given a Densho (manual) listing all the traditional techniques & kata for a Ryu or system, while us westerners are not given the Densho. Whether this has changed in the last couple of years I do not know and stand corrected if it has.

    I hope that helps

  7. SilentNightfall

    SilentNightfall Eien no Ninja

    Hello, all. This marks my first post on the forum. I've posted about this topic at countless other places so I'm pretty well-versed on the subject by now. This post is not meant to offend and I will try to be as purely factual as I can.

    Okay, now as it was stated, Tanemura was once a student of Hatsumi-sensei. As I understand it, Tanemura and Hatsumi-sensei had a falling out when Tanemura (who is Hatsumi-sensei's cousin) made some sort of comment while at a funeral for a family member (I can't recall the relation). From this point on, it seems Tanemura harbored some sort of anger and resentment towards Hatsumi-sensei. But let's get down to the facts. I'll start with O-Sensei Takamatsu, who is believed to have been the last true ninja. As we all know, all the x-kans are described as being the Takamatsuden schools because they are all derived from the teachings that Takamatsu-sensei passed down. What people seem to forget a lot is that Tanemura only trained with Takamatsu for a few hours of one single day in his life, and that this was when hatsumi took him and a few other students to train with his teacher, Takamatsu-sensei. It is Hatsumi-sensei that had the scrolls passed down to him from O'Sensei Takamatsu, thus making him the only one deemed capable of effectively evolving ninjutsu/ninpo in the essence of Takamatsu-sensei. Yes, things have been changed over time in all the schools. It is my opinion that only Hatsumi-sensei is adapting the art in the sense that it was meant to be changed.

    I will not get into the Genbukan aspect of this discussion in public view. I will, however, be glad to take any private messages from those who wish to know what I know about the leader of the Genbukan and discuss it. I have heard stories from people that have trained with him and seen videos of the man in action. The treatment of his students has much to be desired, as does his attitude towards any who come to train with him that he knows to be from the Bujinkan. As I have said, I can state what I know in PM's, but not here, because I've seen this flame war rise many times before and I don't wish to begin such on this forum. For now, I'm off. Best regards.
  8. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    " it has to do with the wearing of the black gi ( to keep it simple right now) but it symbolized evil, death, and bruising." Actually the black gi was an invention of Noh theatre. There are no curtains in Noh, so long before Ninja had any starring roles in their plays, the set changers would wear black clthing while changing sets. This usually happened during the action itself. The audience knew they were not part of the play itself, hence "invisible". Later, when Ninja were featured in the play, doing the things ninja were infamous for, they dressed them in black. So, after awhile, naturally people thought that was the costume of the ninja. And then later still, it became so. In all actuallity, dark, mottled grey is better at night time concealment than black. Black standa out as a shadow in the darkness. That was one of the first things taught by Soke on his first trip to the USA. Just comes down to life imitating art. Much like today, if someone sees some big action star doing something in a movie, most of the general public is going to think that's the way it is done.
  9. SilentNightfall

    SilentNightfall Eien no Ninja

    Kurohana, you're exactly right about the origins of the "ninja wear black at night" concept. Besides grey, light and dark blues, as well as earth tone browns and greens would have bee used for the "stealth" garb.

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