Function vs. Flash

Really good and interesting thread Superfoot! It's nice to see someone be honest about it as well, not many would admit to being humbled so easily! lol... All the points are very good too, I agree with what you are saying with regards to high kicks. I train in Kempo and Jujitsu which aims mainly at joint locks and low striking. My brother in law trains (And is a lot more advanced than myself) in TKD which spends more time on the fancy stuff. He is very agressive and being smaller than me tends to push for fighting all the time cause he wants to prove he is the 'big man'. Whenever we hit the beach etc we always seem to end up sparring, well, him kicking and me blocking! lol No matter how many times I do it, he always falls for the same technique though. He works aggressively with mid range kicks, which I find very easy to parry/block. I back up slowly, allowing him to get in closer and then 'catch' one of his higher kicks and 'tug' at his standing ankle with my free heel. Result? He falls down and I 'tag' him for show lol. He always complains it's not a legal TKD move, but then my answer is that I don 't practice TKD though do I? My point is more that he is always showing off high kicks. When we use the tyres on the local park though, I surprised him with my roundhouse, spinning back kick and double roundhouse kicks. He was also amazed at how I 'chamber' the kick and reach the top tyre (Which is 7 and a half foot high). The upshot is that at 6'4 and being very flexible I can kick powerfully and accurate at ridiculous heights, but I don't! Being flash is cool, and is actually in my nature (The username is a giveaway lol) but it's not practical. I cannot envisage a time when I would use it anywhere other than the dojo, but I know if I did it would have to be erfect timing. Maybe if you stun them enough then yeah, but it's just not practical unless you want to show off or make a point. The splits have never been a problem for me either, but do you know when I did them a couple of weeks ago even my wife was shocked as she had no idea I could do them! Maybe I need to be a bit more flash eh? lol Anyway, good thread bro.

 

Flashyboy, thanks for your comments and input. Great account of sparring your brother on the beach. It certainly sounds like you have your head screwed on the right way! Keep it up

 

Function every time. I love getting a head kick in if I'm playing, but I think that a sweep looks even better. Low kicks and knees all the way.

 

^Agreed. And punches. A good hook or uppercut to the throat will do it.

 

very well written and interesting to read, i can completely understand ur points even though i have never even practiced high kicks or attempted to do one. it was interesting for me to hear how ur mind set was whn u were trying to do things like high kicks cause since ive only trained in jujitsu everything with me has alays been trying to get people close to strke or throw or somthing but overall very good and interesting thread

 

Thank you for your comment.

 

I agree that the argument that high kicks are always useful is 100% BS.

At the same time, the implied reverse, that high kicks are JUST flash and not function, is equally erroneous. If this was true, you would never see head kicks in kyokushin, muay thai, K-1, or MMA. But you do. They're a useful tool and they have their place.

 

Good post. Entertaining read.


Mike

http://www.jiujitsugis.com
http://www.thecancerhealer.com

 

High kicks are not effective in a real confrontation. How many real fights have you seen or been in to warrant their use?
Now to really "Blow your Mind"-Do you see high kicks used effectively in Aikido, Judo, Ju Jitsu, UFC, Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, other well-known effective arts that do not use them. These arts that do not have high kicking- Aikido, Judo, Ju Jitsu, UFC(champion fighters-do not use them), Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, other well-known effective arts have many accomplishments without such tactics.

You have to ask your self, what is the TRUE accomplishment of high-kicking?

The Accomplishment of High Kicking:

It is a PERSONAL accomplishment. To be able TO DO IT.

To accomplish balance and a certain "look", per "Look what I can do". Not so much to show others (as with some to fuel a ego), but to say to yourself, that I (you) Can Do It.

It is a goal for yourself. Your personal mindset for accomplishment.


Con of High Kicking:

It accomplishes nothing in a real situation or studying those arts that do not use it

One thing I should probably say at the very onset is that kicking is probably the least effective of all the combative methods. This is because your motion and stability are severely curtailed the instant you take a foot off the floor and you rarely get the space to use kicks, anyway. That is not to say that kicking does not have a role to play, because it does. However, I do want to point out that this role is nowhere near as large as much of modern practice.

To make our kicks as effective as possible, we need to keep them low and deliver them with force. Another component of effective kicking is accuracy. During the chaos of a fight the accurate placement and delivery of strikes becomes extremely difficult. Whilst it is relatively easy to hit a punch-bag, strike a focus-mitt or deliver accurate blows when practicing with a compliant practice partner, it is extremely difficult to deliver an accurate strike to an opponent who doesn't want to be hit.

 

If you haven't seen high kicking used effectively in the UFC, it's probably been about a decade since you've seen the UFC. Come on back.

 

Rare flukes and low percentage of KOs.

 

Landed head kicks generally end in KOs. And flukes? I'd like to see you make that argument to Maurice Smith.

I don't disagree with your fundamental point. But you're just flat-out wrong here.

 

I just watched a great UFC fight actually where the ko came from a great,perfectly executed head kick.Awesome.

 

I am not stating that no one can get KOed from a high kick. The percentage of KO from high kicks are low. Very low.

High kicking is precarious in self defense siutations.

 

Just to add my .02 - first off - great post Superfoot - once again you show great maturity born of experience rather than theory!
Now the brown-nosing is out of the way - I would add that the dangers of high kicks and the type of teaching you describe can be applied to many dojos/dojangs around the world - the problem isn't so much high kicks, as instructors creating a false sense of 'functionality' (is that even a word??) and self-belief in their students...
TKD comes in for a lot of stick, but I've seen judokas and jujitsu exponents, along with people from various styles, who are so sure that what they train is so deadly and perfect, and yet they cannot perform those techniques when it matters!! It doesn't matter what your range or style is - if you are training techniques that are ridiculously complex and/or unfeasible than you will encounter the same bloodied nose-broken end that Superfoot did...
When I was teaching I made a clear distinction between 'street' techniques and 'dojang' techniques...High kicks and flashy technique can be a part of any style, but there needs to be a distinction made when teaching SD aspects - as for me, I have much more faith in a nice simple turning kick to the ribs or even a nice hook or elbow attack to the jaw than I do in any kick to head height...

 

High Kicks=Competition

Low Kicks=Seld Defense

 

The percentage of high kicks that land cleanly are low. But you quoted boxing. Look at punches thrown versus punches landed. Also low. It's easier to land a punch, no question. But this "low percentage shot" argument is one of those catchphrases people bandy around without much real analysis.

The percentage of KOs resulting from landed head kicks is probably actually quite high.

I've already stated I agreed with that point, but you backed it up with evidence from the UFC.


Stuart

 

Good argument ap Oweyn.

 

I can't help but notice that muay thai and kyokushin karate were both missing from your list of "well-known effective arts." And you included Aikido? I've got no beef with Aikido, but since you're distinguishing between "what works with a complying partner" and "what works with a fully-resisting opponent," you should remember that there's no free-sparring in Aikido.

ap Oweyn already explained why you're wrong about head kicks in the UFC, but for the record, the man is dead on.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiZ8ZVUUvAo&NR=1"]YouTube - UFC 74: Couture vs. Gonzaga - See it again on VOD![/ame]

Watch 0:55-1:00. That's Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic who got KOed, not some novice.

 

good stuff here. I agree that function goes way beyond flash. That is one thing that always made me laugh about people talking about chinese arts, I have been studying chinese arts for about 11 yrs, and people always say "oh that flowery stuff" or "its all circles and flowers" well some of the show stuff is Flashy (mainly Wu-Shu). But the real meat of the art is aggresive and very brutal. I study Lung Jow which is actually not pretty at all, barely no kicks, and it always ends badly.... I have been put on the path of Mantis which has alot of joint locks and breaks, nothing flashy about that. I use alot of Chi-Na pain full and very usefull but not Flashy.... lol I am 5' 11" and about 220lbs, so jumping and kicking is not my thing. I also am in the Army and have studied Army Combatives, which has really brought my ground fight to a new level.

Respects