Full Nelson KO?

i'm new to this site. i'm wondering if it's actually possible to put somebody completely unconscious with a full nelson? if so, what exactly causes it? lack of bloodflow? lack of oxygen? pressure on the vagus nerve?

 

Yes, technically it is possible.

A full nelson is a restraining hold becuase if done properly it greatly limits the movement not just of the neck and head, but of the arms as well. But at it's most simplest it is a neck/spine lock or neck crank. If you put it on hard enough, you will knock someone out just by virtue of snapping their neck. So if someone doesn't die straight away, they are likely to become unconscious due to shock.

Saying that, it's not likely to happen unless you are really trying and know specifically how to improve the chances of injury or being incredibly stupid.

 

The only way I can think, is because their buddy beats your face in whilst your restrained?

 

The full nelson should not be taught as a restraint hold. If it appears anywhere in a syllabus it should be as a technique to escape from, and it should never be used in dynamic training due to the risk it poses to the upper vertebrae.

 

Yes you can ko someone with a full nelson if it's done a certain way. The way you see it in pro wrestling with the hands behind the neck is a strength hold more than anything but in chin na we have a version of it where you put your hands on the crown of the head. Then you roll the head down and pull in on it. It crimps the wind pipe and becomes a seal the breath choke out!

 

Yes. Certainly. Most neck cranks done correctly and applied in a certain manner can pass someone out. You can crank the head down to their chest and it will become a blood choke.

 

That just sounds plain freaky... and really dangerous.

 

Hence the term Martial art

 

I'm well aware of the "martial" (don't forget, I'm a Yoshinkan guy :evil. The reason behind your comment is that a couple things bother me about your description:

1. If it actually works as you have described, how can you practice this safely? "Crimping" the wind pipe sounds very damaging... and that leads to my next point.

2. The term "crimping" sounds somewhat suspicious to me when used in relation to the wind pipe. It can be compressed, it can be crushed, etc. But crimped? I have a hard time seeing how that is possible, and I tend to think that some other form of damage would occur before you could mess the neck up enough to crimp it.

I did a quick google and came up with this.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_prevents_your_windpipe_from_closing_up_when_you_bend_your_neck

The last sentence makes my point; "The range of motion typical of the neck isn't enough to cause it to crimp or collapse."
Before you say "well we're taking the neck past its 'typical range of motion'", let me point out that taking the neck past its typical range of motion will break it.

 

I would disagree with anyone saying that a straight full nelson position will cause any type of choke or strangle, at least without further and more detailed description of what you are actually doing.

A full nelson bends in neck in such a way that the chin is pressed into someones chest. This on its own does not cause restriction of either blood or air flow through the neck regions enough to cause a loss of consciousness. You can even try it on yourself if you feel like it - gently of course. It's not a particularly comfortable position, but you can still breathe and you will stay conscious due to a continuous movement of blood throughout your brain.

To spinmaster and 19thlohan - I would agree with both of you. I would say 'crimping' in this case to mean something similar to compressing. However, you generally need some sort of pressure on the front side of the neck to achieve this.

It's the same sort of neck position as this...

 

I'm not sure what your definition of crimping, Feel free to change the word if you like but what ever you want to call it it will seal the breath when done correctly. I've been on the recieving end of it numerous times in practise and have seen a few guys go out from it.


I think both you and righty missed an important detail in my post. Rolling the head down only sets up the choke it's when you pull in at the end that you seal the breath.

 

I'm not saying it crimps a windpipe. Though the post right above about setting it up then pulling it in seem plausible to me.
I'm saying it cause enough compression in the neck area that the carotids are sealed off. I've had it done to me to the point where the black started closing in, so I know its true.

Also, range of motion describes natural range of motion I believe. Hyperextension is the next phase, then destruction or damage. Just like my neck, my elbow can be hyperextended and not break. But its certanily past my range of motion.

Also, that picture is a bit misleading because in a nelson, your arms arm up and your shoulders are compressing up into your neck area creating more compression. In that picture, no pressure from the shoulders in being applies to the target area to create more compression.

 

A properly done full nelson can cause a lose of consciousness depending on the technique and strength of the person applying it. Once it is locked in it is very difficult to escape from. Most escapes for a full nelson taught in traditional martial arts is from the wrestling version of a full nelson and will not work for a properly applied one..

 

Not if I have my own “mates” watching my back.

 

Sorry American old guy can not translate.

 

weren't they common in Wimbledon???