from forms to fighting

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by beknar, Oct 30, 2007.

  1. beknar

    beknar Valued Member

    First off, some caveats. I'm not a master, I'm not an instructor, I don't hold a black belt in anything, and I don't mean for any of my own discussion to be definitive statements from myself or from my school. Everyone has different experiences and different results, this is just from my perspective.

    How does one get from forms to fighting? From some of my experiences, from some of my own results, from some discussions I've had on other forums and with other people, I would argue that the opposite is actually what's supposed to happen.

    We are exposed to two things only at the beginning. The first conditioning form and the 8 bagua hands. One of the highest ranking CLF grandmasters, Doc Fai Wong, says that in order to toughen oneself up to do CLF strikes, to handle the forces generated, to actually generate the kind of power they spcialize in, you HAVE to do the first conditioning forms. What do we learn from the first form? We learn static stancework, moving stancework (footwork) and power generation from the waist. The entire form can be broken down into single person and two person drills, even the footwork.

    What are the 8 bagua hands? Simply put, they are the basic strikes we learn at this level. The 8 bagua hands are where we start applying the concepts of static stancework, moving stancework and power generation. Once again, we practice these singly and in pairs. We practice them in the air, on focus mitts, on the heavy bags, on double ended bags and on each other.

    The next form, Ng Lun Choi (Five Wheel Fist), we start moving with the strikes. Everything from the first form is re-emphasized, but they add more strikes into the mix along with more movement concepts. At this point, you are pretty much ready to start fighting and sparring. Range, timing, feinting are all ready to be assimilated due to the foundation built up by the first two forms, basic strikes and drills, and are probably somewhat already there due to the use of San Sau/two person drills.

    At each point in this progression, the form is used as a reference point, along with the basic strikes. These are all basic concepts and it's enough to take us to sparring. Advanced strategies, combinations and concepts are available, but they're all in the forms after the first two and are learned after you already know how to fight!

    The more advanced forms, the pretty forms, they hone your fighting ability, but they are not the ones that teach you how to fight. The fighting ability comes from the drills that were broken down from the conditioning forms and from the sparring.
     
  2. IronDragon

    IronDragon Banned Banned

    There are a variety of ways, also depends if said form is designed for fighting; ie. some forms are designed for isometric conditioning, breath control, chi/qi cultivation, etc.
    That aside, those all come into the realm of fighting skills and and knowledge and so need to be applied when developed properly.

    As for those forms designed for martial useage specifically, one should train them hard, do them full speed and full power to the point of exhaustion and then beyond to see how well conditioned they are and to build up their endurance, cardio and fighting capability.
    From there, as we do it, take sections of whatever form and try those techniques out against your training partners who actively resist and try to fight back to see just how it practically applies in real life and if it would be effective, from there you can see if said technique will work like it is done in the form or if you need to adjust, adapt or scrap it for something else.
    As with all things fighting related; conditioning forms, cardio forms, chi cultivation forms, breath development/control froms. All should be trained with intent and reality for the desired intent, to be a better and more abled fighter.
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Pretzel In Training

    By taking your well deveoped forms and applying them? :D

    In my tiny bit of experience there's a big difference between practicing a form on your own, and then practicing with an opponent (even if a compliant one). For me, trying to work a form on a compliant partner is bad enough, let alone a resisting one. So you need to learn to apply what you have in various stages and progress from form to fight.

    As said above you need to play with what you've learnt, adapt/personalise it and find what works practically for you.
     
  4. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Step 1: learn all techniques in form.
    Step 2: learn 2 man set drills that correspond with techniques in form.
    Step 3: practice all techniques in form and in 2 man set drills ad nauseum.
    Step 4: learn form.
    Step 5: practice form and 2 man set drills and individual techniques ad nauseum. When you learn something from your 2 man set drills, your forms, or from individual techniques, apply that refinement to all of your other practice.
    Step 6: practice form and 2 man set drills and individual techniques and sparring ad nauseum. When you learn something from your 2 man set drills, your forms, your sparring, or from individual techniques, apply that refinement to all of your other practice.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I believe you go from fighting to the form. With the exception of kihon and basics which are learned before fighting.

    I guess that could be interpreted as the exact opposite of what the title of this thread says.


    Nicely put... my variation of this list would go:

    1. kihon, basics, body mechanics
    2. drill the basic movements of techniques in the air (a piece of a form)
    3. drill a few techniques from a form (not all of them) in a static manner with a partner (step by step)
    4. drill the techniques with a partner using progressive resistance
    5. work the technique in light controlled sparring
    6. Learn the form
    7. repeat steps 1 - 5 for other techniques you wish to learn from the form

    P.S. remember that the form is a more generic and fluid version of the actual techniques so some details are left out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2007
  6. Su lin

    Su lin Gone away

    Out of interest what style of kung fu do you train in Rebel Wado?
     
  7. IronDragon

    IronDragon Banned Banned

    Has anyone given the thought that training a section of a form with a compliant partner in a static manner does not actually teach one to fight efficiently?

    In our system, we throw static BS out the window, we train Live, that's the only practical way to see how it will or will not work under pressure, you try to make said section work against someone fighting you actively, you don't know what they'll do but you try and see if you can make the form applications work as they exist in the form, thus you see if they are sound, if you need to adapt the application or if they are not fighting effective but meant for muscle development or principle instruction instead.

    That tends to work much better and I've learned forms both ways, I've always seen greater success from the Alive method than I have from the Static method
     
  8. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Well yeah ;) :D
     
  9. IronDragon

    IronDragon Banned Banned

    Good, was just curious by your and rebel wado's use of the term set drills with partners, in most senses of the word, set = static, thus not realistic nor practical.
    Personally, if I wanted to pretend all day long and not actually test my and my partner's skills out, I'd dress up in D&D gear and battle it out with my magic sword.
    But, as I actually like to train with my master and kung fu brothers realisticly, like to teach realisticly and like to make sure my students learn effectively, we tend to throw set drills out and allow free flowing drills to take their place ;)
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Pretzel In Training

    But are there set drills to start with, before they're thrown out?
     
  11. IronDragon

    IronDragon Banned Banned

    There are ideas and concepts, but not set drills ;)
     
  12. beknar

    beknar Valued Member

    Wow, some great responses here. And yes, it seems like nearly everyone, including me, trended towards the opposite of the thread title.
     
  13. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    I practiced CLF for 4 years. The only effect the practice of forms had on my fighting ability was to deduct from the time I could have spent learning to hurt people.
     
  14. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    What do you call it when you stand toe to toe - one person throws a set attack, like a straight punch, and the other person defends with the appropriate defensive hand?

    Like if someone stands and throws jab-cross combos and the other person works crazy monkey to defend them self?
     
  15. Su lin

    Su lin Gone away

    A set drill? You both know what's coming even if the punches are thrown at different speeds.
     
  16. IronDragon

    IronDragon Banned Banned

    As already said, a set drill, or pretend.

    Now, if it's my intention to attack my partner in any way I see fit or desire without telegraphing my intent towards them and they see fit to defend themself in like manner, each of us out to defeat the other in any way we see fit to, then I call that realistic training.
     
  17. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    in wing chun, or at least in our lineage we go like this...

    each day:
    1. learn some philosophy / theories (centerline, guard this or that)
    2. learn a move (or for older students, relearn) such as a punch, block etc...
    2b. learn how to say the move traditionally and its translated terms
    3. learn how to apply that move into a situation either on offense or defense
    4. practice this application with a partner
    5. (after learning 2-3 applications)
    6. practice the form (to practice meditation, to remember the moves, to relax, to build muscle memory, to help concentration, to help breathing, to practice the stance, to condition the stance, to practice balance, to practice angles of the movement, to practice centerline theory)

    at home:
    practice shadow punching/sparring
    go over what i learned in the air (shadow)
    practice the form (i meditate in the form)
    practice with a partner, heavier contact

    the forms are great for practice, without a partner, meditating or for muscle memory and other purposes.
     
  18. Su lin

    Su lin Gone away

    How does that relate to learning to fight,if at all Jroe?
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't study a style of Kung Fu at the moment, I've done some non-classical Wing Chun (called JKD at the time), but I mostly cross-train in Kung Fu. My core style is Kajukenbo which is out of Hawaii.

    But Kajukenbo has evolved through the years and branched out and I've found the principles are the same across all martial arts. So as part of Kajukenbo, I'm studying from some instructors of Choy Li Fut Kung-Fu, Tai Chi, and they throw in some Bagua. I guess I'm a mutt.

    Oh, and Kajukenbo has a Tumpai branch which in the last few years I've been learning more about from instructors of that branch. It is basically Tai Chi and Kajukenbo combined together to create Tumpai.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2007
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sort of... I used the term Kihon, which is Japanese (doh).

    There are some forms that are taught first because they are basics. So as long as it is understood that some forms are taught first as part of basics, then I'm okay with saying that one should learn the techniques and drill them with a partner before learning the form (non-basic form). Also, you do not have to learn all the techniques in a form before learning the form, only a few to wet the appetite, IMHO.
     

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