Free Sparring in Kempo?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Alexander, Oct 14, 2004.

  1. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    Hello everyone!

    I've just started University and now that fresher's week is over and the hangover is starting to kick in, I am trying all the tons of various differant styles of martial art that there are here!

    I'm going to try Shorinji Kempo on Sunday. I've had a word with the Kempo instructor and he has told me there is no free sparring. I was just wondering if this is normal in Kempo Dojos or whether it is peculiar to this one?

    Cheers,
    Alexander
     
  2. kcatcher

    kcatcher Banned Banned

    Shorinji Kempo is quite perculier relative to other styles. Very little 'free' sparring according to most people I've heard. seems to enphasise choreographed multiple attacker scenarios.

    But I've never seen it first hand.
     
  3. JTiedes

    JTiedes Wielder of the Wiffle.

    i take ed parker kenpo and we have a erious emphasis on freeform sparring. one of our head instructor's beliefs is that if you do not know how to use a move on a person, why bother learning it at all. we do drills to work the stuff, then are set against people to spar, sometimes one person, some times team 2v1, rumbles, its good stuff, if there is an ed parker kenpo near u i reccomend it
     
  4. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    Randori, or free sparring, is an important part of the Shorinji Kempo curriculum. However, different dojos and teachers put varying amounts of emphasis on it. If it's something that's important to you I'd suggest you speak to the instructor about it. We do practice it at my dojo.

    EDIT: It also depends how advanced you are. My sensei teachers the lower belts at my school a solid foundation of basic techniques before they are exposed to very much sparring.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2004
  5. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    As Omicron has said. Randori, in all it’s forms is a vital part of training. I can’t imagine a shibu that do not practice it. As Omicron has said, it may be helpful to discus this with the branch master. Shorinji Kempo does not advocate competitive sparing, where the aim is for one person to win over another. We look at it as a development tool, and the competition is with yourself. There are many types of randori, these are focused at developing different areas of free fighting. Generally when you are at a junior level the randori will be limited in some way, either one person will be attacker, and the other defend; or only punches, or kicks; or the speed will be limited, this is more of a playfull version. These are all aimed at developing certain areas of the whole, once you have more experience then you will move to fewer restrictions. This allows people to be creative and experimental, rather than just retreat to survival mode. In full randori there are no banned target areas or techniques.

    Someone mentioned the choreographed multi attacker routines of Shorinji Kempo. These are what we call Embu, usually they are done in pairs; however sometimes they will be against multiple attackers, and at other times they may be done as a group of pairs of people all doing the same Embu together and in time with each other. Embu is also an important part of Shorinji Kempo, as they require people to work and practice together to develop an expression of themselves, and their Shorinji Kempo. It also helps in developing techniques as a bridge between individual technique training and randori. The aim in Embu is that the techniques are done to the correct target and distance at proper speed, and they are proper techniques, not something designed for entrainment.

    We use another method with our normal practice of individual waza. This is called renhanko. This is when the waza is finished, you complete the defence with an un choreographed series of attacks, and your partner has to read and counter them. This also helps in developing randori skills.
     
  6. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    I do enjoy a good randori.

    As Colin has said, there are many different types of partner work in Shorinji Kempo, and it's important to be able to distinguish between the choreographed embu and the free sparring in randori. They are both useful learning tools, but different skills are learned in each of them.
     
  7. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    Many thanks.
     
  8. getgoin

    getgoin Idiot Savant

    Is it a school group or a commercial school? He may not want people to spar for many reasons, inexperience, insurance, or (if its in a university) school policy to name few. Everyone here is right, talk to the instructor, what could it hurt?
     
  9. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    Out of curiosity Alexander, how did you enjoy the class?
     
  10. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    fcokeefe,

    There are no Shorinji Kempo commercial schools, it is forbiden to make money teaching it. We all use the same curriculum, training methods do very though. One important aspect of randori (free sparing) is that it is a tested skill in many of the gradings, this is another reason I think there has been a missunderstanding.

    Alexander,

    I too would be interested to hear how things went.
     
  11. Tripitaka of AA

    Tripitaka of AA Valued Member

    And if it is not a secret, you could tell us which Uni club it is (and I'll spill the beans on all the inside gossip on the instructor for you :D ). Or if you prefer, you could keep that bit quiet and we could try and guess (each instructor is an individual, they all have their own personality after all :) ).

    I'm just kidding. I hope you found Shorinji Kempo to be what you want from a Martial Art. I'm told that the Uni clubs are incredibly busy right now, with the influx of new students. If you aren't too sure about the club, perhaps you could try again later in the year, when the classes are likely to be more settled.
     
  12. getgoin

    getgoin Idiot Savant

    What about that gentlemen that was in Blackbelt mag a couple of years back that owns a school in Hollywood, you telling me that that school doesn't make money!? I can see trying to get rich off of it, which doesn't bother me either, that may be against the associations rules. But not allowing people to make a decent living breaks it into two areas for me, hobby or cultism. I am sure cultism is not envolved so for me I hope it would fall under hobby. I do have a question though, please pm me the answer so we don't drift off topic. What happens to the money a school collects for teaching and merchandise?

    Even so, it doesn't take from my point. If you teach in the U.S. it is best to have insurance and it may be the same in the U.K.. His insurance may not cover contact or he may not have insurance. I would like to know what his responce was though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2004
  13. Tripitaka of AA

    Tripitaka of AA Valued Member

    The Instructors in Shorinji Kempo are not meant to make a living from teaching Shorinji Kempo. They have jobs.

    The tuition fees that are charged are calculated to be a reasonable fee for the service provided. Dojo fees are what pays for the hall rental. Insurance is arranged through the National Federation (well it may be through the individual clubs in America, but in the UK it is through the British Shorinji Kempo Federation).

    As ALL the Shorinji Kempo training in the world is administered from the headquarters in Tadotsu, Japan, by the WSKO, there are good methods of quality control and all Dojo are encouraged to maintain high standards. WSKO are strict on the "not for profit" principle.

    Occasionally, when the instructor is originally from Japan, it may have been a condition of his visa that he teaches "Martial Arts" and does not work in another capacity... but this would be the exception.
     
  14. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    You can recover costs, but teaching Shorinji Kempo is not what you should do as a profession. Kuramoto sensei is an ordained priest of Kongo Zen Buddhism, and this is his life’s work. So Doshin was very much against making a living from teaching how to fight, but more than this he believed that by living entirely within the martial arts was bad for the development of the person, and that people should seek out a number of experiences within life to develop a wider knowledge base.

    Further to this is that Shorinji Kempo is very much a Buddhist based art. One of the four noble truths is the right occupation, by this they mean that what you do as a profession should be of worth to the community. This is not to say a martial arts instructor is not of worth, but rather they were not what So Doshin was trying to develop. His main aim was to produce strong leaders within the community that had a good sense of morality and ethics, and were prepared to stand up for what is right, and work towards a better community for all.

    One of his favourite sayings was “The person, the person, the person; everything depends on the quality of the person” this he learned in Manchuria under occupation by Japan, and later Russia. He noticed that it was not race or religion that made a difference in the way people treat each other, but rather the qualities of the individual people and leaders.

    Shorinji Kempo has been described as cultish by some, but I think this comes from a lack of understanding. So Doshin encouraged very much individual thought and analysis, and was always trying to encourage people to study and learn more about the world that we live in. This is directly opposite what a cult would be trying to do.
     
  15. Tripitaka of AA

    Tripitaka of AA Valued Member

    Hi Colin, we must have been composing our answers simultaneously! What a good job that we didn't echo each other too closely (people would suspect a cult... ;) ).
     
  16. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    Hello everyone.

    Thanks again for the replies.

    Unfortunately I didn't get to try the class . This was because all other MA clubs in the area advertised that the first session would be free so I made the stupid mistake of showing up with no cash and finding they required £5. They also told me they didn't like people watching so I had to leave without seeing anything either.

    My timetable is clogged at the moment as well so I probably won't be able to get to another session for quite a while.... :(
     
  17. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    I'm sure they won't mind you watching. Some clubs have special times for beginners to start, but this is just for logistical reasons. I couldn't comment on the charges, but I would be surprised if they said it would be free, and then wanted you to pay. Ethics are very important in Shorinji Kempo.
     
  18. Tripitaka of AA

    Tripitaka of AA Valued Member

    Perhaps you were too "Good-Looking" as your Sig says. They wouldn't want any accidents from the female Kenshi being distracted, would they ;)
     
  19. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    Never a truer word has been spoken. Whilst we're on the subject of me, let's all marvel at how incrediably modest I am. :cool:
     
  20. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    Sorry, they never said it was free, I just assumed it would be because all the other clubs (TKD, HKD, Shotokan etc..) were for the first session. The all seemed perfectly nice people. It's just I had no money to pay them.
     

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