What I mean to say is that for something that (supposidly) isnt meant for conditioning, did 'just that' really well. It may have helped with other things, but I couldnt be sure as also had heavy bag, floor to ceiling ball, breaking holder and a partner (most of the time) to train with.. .. I know the heavy bag helped my shins, as it was 'compacted' at the bottom and thus almost like concrete, but the makiwara certainly conditioned other areas very nicely. Stuart
Correct training on the Taelyoon-bong (makiwara post) develops punching skill to a much higher degree than heavy bags (excluding a pure water bag) or other devices. (I will state that next to the Talyoon-bong, the human target is the most useful target to practice on) In a unique way, the Talyoon-bong aligns and strengthens the multitude of body movements on a one point focus with a search for continuum (depth of penetration), perfects time & distance in relation to -- "impacts evolution into penetration", becomes plyometric due to the exponential nature of the returning force from the leaf spring type structure of the board. You can find some of these benefits to a smaller degree from a stuffed bag or a ball, but you can never reach your personal full potential without the Talyoon-bong (and maybe a pure water bag). Sure toughening/hardening your hands, etc. is a byproduct of this training, but it is secondary and not the main focus. A have a specialty wrench for removing the spindle nut on my front wheel drive car. It's thick and heavy around the rim, and flat on one side of the rim, if I use the wrench to pound in nails, it's a bit awkward but it's heavy & flat enough to do it, a hammer works much better. However, the hammer does not work well when it comes to removing the spindle nut. If my friend ask to borrow a hammer, I don't hand him my spindle wrench, and if he ask for a spindle wrench, I certainly don't hand him a hammer. It's important to know the unique purpose of each training tool ~ ancient Samurai saying
According to the Ency of TKD its "Dallyon Joo" Perhaps why I didnt need it for other things - as I had a training partner too Well, the 'secondary' purpose, was the purpose I wanted and TBH, I dont know a more accessible or better way to achieve that for all the striking tools. Forging Post (Dollyon Joo) The single best method for thoughening the hands and feet while aquiring methods of punching, thrusting, striking and kicking is a forging post - General Choi Hong Hi :woo:
Same name as in his earlier book, written as "tallyon chu". Odd name though, no seniors I've talked to ever called it that. It was either taelyoon-bong, or taelyoon-dae (as in mak-dae). Chu to me mean a type of pendulum or weighted cord, or sinker. Do you know the hanja associated with his term "joo"? According to Gen. Choi, for the sport of Taekwon-do, the "tallyon chu" would promote speed and accuracy, maintain correct posture and control proper breathing. A training partner would be for developing time and distance judgement against a human opponent. Gen. Choi recommended "knocking exercises" with the hands and arms to specifically achieve that. For special hardening of hands and feet he recommends the forging swing. Forging Post (Dollyon Joo) The single best method for thoughening the hands and feet while aquiring methods of punching, thrusting, striking and kicking is a forging post - General Choi Hong Hi[/QUOTE] Before he wrote the TKD Enc. Gen. Choi stated the "tallyon chu" is second to none for also ...... "promoting speed and accuracy, maintaining correct posture and controlling the proper breath." The greater benefit from using the "tallyon chu", as Gen. Choi calls it, is developing correct technique base. This benefit should not be overlooked or lessened in the pursuit of hardened knuckles, hands or feet, which is not necessary when your technique is correct, according to powerful strikers like Mas Oyama and other experienced seniors. Actually Gen. Choi did not use the "tallyon chu" to callous his knuckles either, according to GM PARK Hae Man, Gen. Choi would burn his knuckles with cigarettes to give them a calloused appearance.
So I have to ask the obvious question....why don't boxers use them? They stand to lose or earn millions of pounds purely on their ability to punch with skill afterall. If I was a boxer I'd want to use the methods that brought in the readies.
Here is actually what I wrote: "Correct training on the Taelyoon-bong (makiwara post) develops punching skill to a much higher degree than heavy bags (excluding a pure water bag)" I guess no one ever introduced it boxing gyms? Regardless, boxers train for a different purpose. However, some boxers started using water filled bags about 25-30 years ago and feel it really increased their hitting power. You can find footage of some boxers using "Powair" water bags in the net. Other boxers were use to the stuffed bag and had no interested in change.
Plyometric benefits. I think a stuffed heavy bag can provide some of this, on a small scale, but not anything like the makiwara. The makiwara is perfect as it is fixed, functions as a loaded spring, giving your body an explosive rebound overload that is exponential in relation to the degree of your eccentric forward action. Here is what Wilipedia has to say about Plyometrics, I feel it is very accurate and describes well what is happening during correct makiwara practice. "A plyometric contraction involves first a rapid muscle lengthening movement (eccentric phase), followed by a short resting phase (amortization phase), then an explosive muscle shortening movement (concentric phase), which enables muscles to work together in doing the particular motion. Plyometric training engages the myotatic reflex, which is the automatic contraction of muscles when their stretch sensory receptors are stimulated. Muscular power and muscular strength are two different things. Muscular strength refers to how much force can be applied (The ability to lift a heavier weight as opposed to a lighter one). Strength alone is not indicative of speed. Although muscle strength is correlated to sprint performance, research has shown that combining both resistance training and plyometric training will have better effects on training. While plyometrics assists in rapid force development (power), weight training assists in maximal force output (strength). Power refers to the combined factors of speed and strength. Performance in many sports is based on different types of power." Now as for a water bag, it's providing a strong plyometric, maybe to a similar degree, or close to that of a makiwara but it is not exactly fixed. It has an additional benefit for the advanced striker in that it shifts and moves, changing it's surface location and center of mass location at random, the forces the muscles that stabilize the body core pelvic area connected to legs, arms, and wrist to get the plyometric benefit. Here is an excellent piece written by Michael Fredericson of Standford and Tammara Moore of US Berkely, they both have involvement with athletes at Olympic Trails. Their article explains well what is happening with stabilization and what is developing in the type of training scenario. "The core musculature is composed of 29 pairs of muscles that support the lumbopelvic-hip complex. These muscles help to stabilise the spine, pelvis, and kinetic chain during functional movements. When the system works efficiently, the result is appropriate distribution of forces; optimal control and efficiency of movement; adequate absorption of ground-impact forces; and an absence of excessive compressive, translation, or shearing forces on the joints of the kinetic chain. The first stage in developing a stable core is to develop the abdominal muscles. Richardson et al have discovered that there are two different types of muscles fibres (slow-twitch and fast-twitch) that make up the abdominal muscles, and that because of this different fibre composition, different exercise regimens are required to properly train these muscles. Slow-twitch fibres primarily make up the local muscle system-the muscles of the deeper abdominal muscle layers. These muscles are closer to the centre of rotation of the spinal segments and, with their shorter muscle lengths, are ideal for controlling intersegmental motion, maintaining mechanical stiffness of the spine, and are best suited to respond to changes in posture and extrinsic loads. The key muscles of this system include the transversus abdominus, multifidi, internal oblique, deep transversospinalis, and pelvic floor muscles. Co-contraction of these muscles produces force via the thoracolumbar fascia and the intra-abdominal pressure mechanism stabilises and resists forces acting on the lumbar spine. Fast-twitch fibres, on the other hand, primarily make up the global muscle system, which includes the superficial or outer-layer muscles. These muscles possess long levers and large moment arms that are capable of producing high outputs of torque, with an emphasis on speed, power, and larger arcs of movement. The main muscles in this layer are the erector spinae, external oblique, and rectus abdominis muscles-the muscles that are strengthened by traditional back and abdominal exercises and that assist with gross spinal movements. Interestingly, Hodges and Richardson have shown that it is not simply that deep-layer abdominal muscles are recruited during stabilisation of the spine, but it is how they are recruited that is important. The transverse abdominus and the multifidi are considered "stabilising muscles" (muscles that are continually modulated by the central nervous system and provide feedback about joint position), while the global and larger torque-producing muscles control acceleration and deceleration. The authors found that the co-contraction of the deeper-layer transverse abdominus and multifidi muscle groups occurs prior to any movement of the limbs, and believe that this neuromuscular pre-activation is critical in stabilising the spine prior to any movement"
That's a massively in depth explanation. It's just unfortunate that it's basically a huge explanation of what plyometric means and nothing to support some view that a makiwara provides more plyometric benefits than a bag. Which, to me, sounds like more a of a guess to support your using a makiwara rather than something you've considered beforehand then decided to use a makiwara.
punching skill? nothing. unless you include smashing your knuckles up to "condition" them. In which case a suitably heavy bag with no wraps on will also do the job.
Nope sorry.. Hanja (and Korean) is not my forte Prior to that he writes about hardening and toughening all the natural weapons which are the sine qua of the art. (His words), before refering to the rest. For knifehands and forearms. The Forging post pages show punches, elbows, knifehands and other various strikes and kicks! The swing (if anyone were to make one) seems simply a moving version to get the additional benefit of timing, but not "that" special - besides, a post takes up a lot less room No.. he writes its 'second to none for hardening and toughening the hands and feet, promoting speed and accuracy, maintaining correct posture and controlling the proper breath" - note he mentions the toughening benefits first - not after!!! This isnt from his book is it - just so others are clear - Gen Choi doesnt say this in his 1965 book - these are your words right? In one of his books Mas Oyama talks of the makiwara and shows a picture of a conditioned hand (his) and simply says they are for making a 'strong and flexible body' Not heard that before. But if I recall correctly, there is a video (DVD) of General Choi at his own house, where he states he does conditioning every morning on his own post and then proceeds to demonstrate on one constructed at his house! Isnt/wasnt GM park Hae Man a WTF rival.. if I recall he had something to do with designing the (rival) WTF forms... hmm! Stuart Ps. Can you post a picture of a water bag please!
I think he's talking about somethin like the MTG pro straight hydro bag which is very good - but it looks just like a high quality boxing bag. Don't look up the hydro bag demo on youtube done by that kung fu nutter from london because he uses a different version of it, and frankly he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about,
Oh right - a heavy bag filled with water!! i thought he was refering to some weird fangled oriental training tool lol! So, heavy bag (according to MC) is not so good (or not as good as a post).. but if its filled with water its the DB's!!! Go figure!! thanks, Stuart
For what it may be worth, we had one of those at my dojang. Our instructor used to pound away on it every day to condition his hands; knuckles, back fist and handknife. He had calluses on his hands that were 1/4 of an inch thick and had the consistency of cattle horn. I gather that in his native Korea having that sort of callus development meant you were a hard core martial artist or maybe it was just a Song Moo Kwan thing. He quit conditioning his fists when he reached 65.
let me try to apply occam's razon. the forging post in TKD is essentially a makiwara, right? so, whatever one might think of a makiwara's actual usefulness, it is used for a specific purpose. now general choi and his fellas were originally mostly shotokan karateka, right? the post makiwara is widely used in shotokan as both a conditioning tool and a structure/technique/power development tool, as opposed to other styles that perhaps used it more for the latter and had additional implements for the former. so it stands to reason that although people more used to the okinawan methodology of makiwara training will disagreee about it, in TKD it was originally adopted for all of its hypothetical uses, among them pure conditioning/hardening, which is harmful, yes, if done excessively, without healing time and with incorrect technique, an effect which can be correcting by doing supplementary exercises (of which training on the makiwara is one) responsibly. thoughts? (in b4 makiwara sucks )
Good anology. For me.. its always been a conditioning tool.. no more, no less. It achieve that very well! Stuart
I'm glad you took the time to post what Gen. Choi wrote, especially since I do not have his Encl. Thanks! We can see that he believed these tools both hardened/toughened striking points, as well as improved technique. With that said, do you think or know if Gen. Choi would consider one primary and the other secondary, or both equal?
I'm not familiar with the MTG pro straight water bag, however it sounds like the same thing. The type we use is the Powair type. Many elite boxers use it. I found this old video of Tyson training with original version of the Powair bag. These bags do not have a foam layer. The entire bag is filled with water and meets right up with the outer layer of rubberized vinyl.
