For all "martial artists" who don't spar (Tai chi, Choi Kwang Do, Aikido etc.)

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by BigBoss, Jun 1, 2005.

  1. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    It would seem aliveness is just another term for realism or contact training. Nothing new here but a word that is simple to the point of confusion. A word that is trying to describe something out of defintion.

    So per aliveness, high kocks to the head, spinning and jumping kicks, circular movements of say, Aikido, and grappling hand movements, arent "alive"?

    What about boxers?
    They speed and heavy bag train.
    Run and have sparring partners.
    Do they perofrm these with aliveness in mind?
  2. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    read my post.
  3. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Sparring can not always be alive, in what fashion?

    If any amount of sparring, is to learn movement, energy, and timing, as lastly said, then to determine aliveness, is what one learns from any sparring. And what value from that sparring they have.
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah read Ikken's posts.

    47MartialMan, no one is going to spell things out anymore than they have in the last 34+ pages of posts.

    If you want to define anything, why don't you list a few training exercises you do and how you do them, and we can tell you our opinion if it is alive or not training.
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    This actually is a very good question. These are the kinds of questions that should have been asked in the first place, IMHO.

    Stand up sparring without moving the feet is dead (not alive) because it is missing the movement key element.

    Sparring that uses patterns such as one side always attacks using the same pattern or the defender always defends using the same pattern is dead, because it is missing the key element of timing.

    Sparring that does not have "realistic" resistance from the partner is dead because it is missing the key element of energy.

    Note that almost all training and sparring done at beginner levels is NOT alive because beginners first have to learn the basic movements and techniques. Two beginners sparring often lacks the element of timing and instead is more robotic, so it is dead. Dead training is not bad for beginners or when learning something new, and it is often necessary to really help learn. Aliveness in training can make it harder to learn new things, it really is for gaining experience and getting better in using what you already know.

    I have tried alive training with some beginners and they had a hard time learning techniques from it because it was too much to think about at one time -- brain overload. However, advanced students should always be considering aliveness in training when appropriate, IMO.

    No, this isn't right how you interpreted my posts. There are specific definitions for Aliveness on the Straight Blast Gym website, I posted those definitions previously in this thread. I only use those definitions. Do you not understand those definitions?
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2005
  6. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    OK, this makes more sense. Sorry for the vexation, I am trying to understand.

    One of our drills;
    We come in wearing plain clothes and footwear. (When in winter, wearing jackets also). Thus, limiting movement.

    Sparring is done as a "almost anything goes". Control is a issue, but there is a cooking timer set for a few minutes. This helps to control the amount of time if something or someone loses control. (Such has happened per contusions and mild sanguinary. A occasional KO and third party-ref, to break up if it goes to far-such as a prolonged chokehold, etc.

    For some of these sessions, obsticles such as a table, chairs, and stuffed dummies (are laid on the floor).
  7. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    sounds pretty live to me (i am assuming you train for teh str33t)
  8. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Ok-the bold response are not shouting, but are for contrast-please excuse.
  9. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I/we, have always trained this way for nearly 3 decades.
    One of my "main" instructors was from the "projects", what we in the South call "ghettos".

    His instructors were very eager to cast out some methods (their own traditional) that were not useful for the locale. Often visting and on occasion, working out.
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sounds like quite advanced training 47MartialMan.

    I'm sure the training as you describe is alive, but you have to realize that it would go way beyond the minimum definitions of alive. You probably are just testing the waters by giving an example way on one extreme of training very close to something that might be in RBSD training or a fight club.

    I was hoping you might post somethings that aren't so one-sided, training drills or sparring under more controlled conditions and ask whether those exercises are alive or not.
  11. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Hmmmn. I mght not exactly know how to interpret this.

    Beginners do forms and step sparring.
    Advancers do drills like I describe.
    Weapons-short/medium cudgels, jo/bo,household items.

    Care to explain your post a little more?
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yes, it appears you have good understanding of training principles.

    I think the only point is that you can have realism without it defined as alive (because it is missing one or more of the key elements), and you can have aliveness without it being realistic. It is a matter of perspective.

    Most often aliveness does equal realism but there are exceptions.

    For instance, we have sparring that we do where we control the strikes to vital areas. So when we hit vital areas we pull the punches so not to cause permanent damage to target.

    There are two ways we do this, one is alive and the other is more realistic but not alive.

    1) Alive method = We spar continously with light contact to vital areas if it can be controlled and heavier contact to non-vital areas. We also wear body armor/safety equipment which allows harder sparring, but safety is always a priority.

    2) Dead method = We also spar continously with no pads and light contact to vital areas (very controlled) and heavier contact to non-vital areas. The difference is that if the target can FEEL the hit then they react in a way that makes sense to the blow. For instance, if they can FEEL a kick to the inside of the knee that has enough force that if the technique had not been pulled for safety it could have done something more than just buckle the legs, then the target might drop down to one knee.

    So a sequence using the second (dead method) might go something like. Fighter A kicks Fighter B in the small intestine, bending him over, then follows with a punch to the side of the head, and then stomps the knee. Fighter B only bends forward if the kick actually bends them forward, Fighter B reacts normal (realistically) to the punch to the side of the head also, however, Fighter B feels that their knee was stomped good with control, rather than fight the technique, Fighter B goes down to one knee in a way that would be realistic.

    What I am saying is sometimes we spar and it is something like a movie script without any prescripted movements. However, we roll with blows and try to take hits that we can feel hit the marks in a realistic manner that if it was a real fight and the attacks were full out and not pulled, how the target would move.

    We do both sparring A style (alive) and sparring B style (dead) for different learning purposes. If we only did one or the other, then B style alone would not be as good as A style because B style is dead. We do both ways so it isn't a matter of choosing one or the other, you can do both.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2005
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    No, I can't explain any better.

    However, I did get what I wanted nevertheless...

    So at what point are Beginners introduced to alive training? e.g. forms and step sparring are dead pattern training. So at some point the step sparring moves to something more, when is that and what does that training consist of?
  14. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    I think what Rebel Wado is trying to get at is that to teach a technique you can't teach the full mechanics of it when someones fighting tooth and nail to stop you.
    You have to start with dead training so people learn something but then utilise alive training to make it more effective.
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Bingo, thanks, that is right on. :)
  16. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Beginners are taught basics like stances, blocks, strikes, and kicks-usually in that order. One thing to mention, we dont do those "classic stances", like the horse stance, and karate like robot blocks, and "stiff arm lunch punching" (as though someone had their sleeves starched straight). Nor is there high kicking, except some are thrown to learn how to defend against.

    Step sparring, from our method, is to determine the natural abilities from each student. We know that not every student can perform exactly the same tactics, or at least efficiently, as the next student. So a set of step sparring is like "baby steps" until the beginner becomes comfortable with their own speciality. There is no set time for this for each person has different progress levels than the next.

    Say for a big guy-over 6 ft and close to 300 lbs, we would not want to waste time teaching him high kicks or flashy moves. Although some big people are agile, we rather work on steps that they can adept, use quickly, and easily.

    When the skills of any student develops to the pont of good foundation, we have them spar another near their level. Thus, the one drill is set up as I had explained before.

    However, there is a twist that we do. We have a advance level student pose as a lower level student than the other whom believes they are going against someone of equal level. So we work on a psychological method as well. Both opponets are surprised after on how mentality plays a role in combat.

    So the point of beginners is to start basic, or "crawl" before they can "walk", then to "run" with it upon advanced stages.
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sounds very good to me 47MartialMan.

    Just a question, are step sparring and then sparring as you described the one two ways that your school spars?

    Do you ever spar with safety gear on, for instance?
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Well I dont know if it is good. But it has served its purpose for so long. And other martial artists w/other styles tactics come in and make it more interesting.

    There is two other ways.

    Safety gear is worn sometimes, it allows to feel more blunt of impact. At other times, it is almost a no rule, alamost anything goes. Either way there are some injuires.
  19. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Dont think anyone does this - or should not.

    When you are learning the mechanics then sparring is something as a tool to make you practice them a little quicker with a real human shaped target or attacker.

    However once you age the hand of this Sparring is your Alive/Real testing ground.

    It for me is really this simple.

    You can spar at light / medium or heavy contact but it is really this simple, sparring / rolling is your testing ground when you have the basics this sharpens your movement, timing against a stronger resisting opponent hence Alive/Realistic.
  20. Frogman316

    Frogman316 New Member

    Hard Sparring

    I may seem wussified but I have never done any medium or hard sparring. Not that it scares me it just is that I guess my Sifu wanted to give me a chance to feel out the movements or something. I still got punched square in the nose and it stung but not what I would call a hard hit or even a medium hit.

    Edit: Not that they don't do hard sparring at my school. I have seen my Sifu's wife beat the crap out of people and really dish out some pain on them.

Share This Page