FMA disarms/stick by beltless

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Cannibal Bob, Sep 6, 2006.

  1. Cannibal Bob

    Cannibal Bob Non Timetis Messor

    Silly question, but I noticed there are people going to these gatherings in the UK, so are there any such gatherings in Australia?

    I admit, I'm way way way way way way way way way way way off being skilled enough to participate, being just a beginner, but I wouldn't mind going to watch if they would let me.

    And this taking the fang from the snakes mouth type thing, would that be like when blocking, instead of blocking stick against stick, you would say strike them in the wrist, forearm or hand?

    My teacher has told me a couple of times when we practice blocking that in practice we would aim more to those areas I just mentioned so as to damage their ability to use the weapon.

    Also, would that go back to one of the other things mentioned to me, the closest weapon to closest target thing. For example, it might be better to attack the opponents hand and destroy their ability to use it during the fight rather than taking the risk to try and go in close in order to attack the head or something?

    Before flamming me, remember I'm a complete beginner to FMA, having only started a couple of weeks ago.
     
  2. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP


    Exactly. Also in theory the Alive hand is used to follow the strike in to assist the disarm in numerous ways, although this is notoriously hard to achieve when someone is swinging full power.
     
  3. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Easily one of the best fighting clips I've ever seen.

    Thoes guys have balls the size of planets.
     
  4. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP

    Here's the UFC letter:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    [​IMG]
     
  6. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP

    ^^^^hahahaha
     
  7. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.



    More like.. blah blah blah.. we're a bunch of crybaby sissies that can't handle upping the ante. I'm bored with boxing.. I want to see people going at it with solo, double bastons.. staff.. I want the works damnit! I want true MMA. Bring on your kendo, your kali/arnis/escrima, your flavor of chinese weapon manipulation. I mean if they can pound each others face in, why can't they put on some minor protection equipment and go at it? Thats what gladiator sports are all about...
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2006
  8. Beltless

    Beltless Banned Banned

    In defence, yes I am telling you that the majority of the time when outside my home there isn't a weapon within reach at a moment's notice. I think that idea is a bit of a myth. I'm sure I'd find something If I looked hard enough, but that sort of time isn't usually permitted at a moment's notice. I don't usually check what weapons are readily available and stick close by them whenever I enter a shop/bar/club/pub/ or whatever. So it's probably my own fault, but then how many people do? As for bitching out, if that's the way you see it, then fine. I'm not here to completely bin what is being shown in this thread, but rather to evaluate it a little bit and consider the weaknesses I am seeing in alot of these contestants approach to fighting. I've allready come off as sounding ignorant and aggressive for no reason, I was wrong, I don't expect sympathy for being young and "stupid", but I will modify what I am trying to argue so it is better understood as not an "attack" but a discussion point. And for the record I have acknowledged that this brotherhood (according to what I've been reading, not seeing in those vids) does sound like a triumph for FMAs.

    And I fully understood the analogy being demonstrated, I just know that a disarm is a relatively easy thing with proper training and practise. If you are trying to get a stick out of someone's hand and they see it coming, then their resistance will counter you. But disarms should be applied when someone least expects it, while they're using another part of their body, just after or during the path of the attack, or right before the attack. People are prone to let these things fly out of their hand or at least loosen their grip when you exert an immense amount of pain somewhere on their body. Most of these people are meeting the attacking hand head on and trying to rip the weapon from the attacker's fingers, which is the least effective way of going about it.

    One of FMA's key principles in knife/stick defence is deceptiveness, when you consider a problem, the channels into which your thought is directed are largely encountered by chance. All thought arise as the result of stimulus. One type of stimulus will direct your thought in one direction. Another will direct it elsewhere. This and that idea comes to us. These ideas are suggested by numerous stimuli of varying types from varying sources. So a considerable part of our thinking, and the course it takes, is due to chance. The sleight is to direct the stimuli, thus the thoughts, and thereby the actions of the adversary in order to control their mind and actions, and open them for your attack. This is achieved by manipulating the elements of sleight-of-hand, which include Simulation, Dissimulation, Maneuver, Ruse, and Diversion. My argument for a disarm's effectiveness against a live opponent is best exemplified with the principles of ruse and diversion.

    Ruse is a crafty expedient to temporarily divert attention from your intentions towards the attacker, which is to disarm their weapon in this case. Occasionally diverting the enemy's attention to something else may create an opening for attack. You divert the enemy's attention by temporarily substituting a new, and stronger, interest somewhere else. Filipino knife fighters considered the "live" hand to be the most deadly hand. This is largely due to diversion. The enemy is watching your knife, not your empty hand. The empty hand can insert devastating attacks to the eyes, throat, etc. while the attention of the enemy is transfixed on the blade. Also, directing the bulk of your counter attack somewhere other than their weapon misdirects the attention of their defence. Furthermore, applying pain and force transfixes the mind's attention to where the body is under attack, while the attacker's focus on their "live" hand is minimal, the disarm is more easily exectued.

    The true skill of the fighter is skill in influencing the mind of the enemy. This is not a thing of mechanics or dexterity. It is entirely a thing of psychological attack. It is completely a thing of controlling the enemy's thinking. Convincingly interpreting, to the enemy, what the senses bring to him, in such a way that the knife fighter's objectives are accomplished.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2006
  9. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP



    That's all very interesting but the point you're missing is that disarms are NOT 'relatively easy' by any means. Your hypothesis on how disarms can be achieved is just that - a hypothesis, and one which completely disregards the difficulty of pulling off such a move while someone is swinging a stick at your head full power.

    You seem to be putting forward the opinion that these guys are somehow 'failing' because they aren't managing an awful lot of tricky disarms, and are instead relying on simpler blocking strikes a lot of the time.

    Are you saying you'd be able to pull off such a disarm while fighting full contact?
     
  10. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP


    No, the true skill of the fighter is in smashing the guy before he hits you.

    Have you ever done any sparring at all?
     
  11. juramentado

    juramentado lean, mean eating machine

    There's a tired old joke in FMA about disarms..

    "Disarms? sure we knows disarms..I cut off his arms, this arm goes there, this arm goes there.." :D (more than one head of a system has told me this same joke LOL!)

    Think about it. If you have a weapon, would you be willing to part with it in a fight just like that? Of course not! the only way someone will take the knife from my hand in a fight is by prying it from my cold, dead fingers.

    Disarms are moments of opportunity. It can happen but don't bet on them. If it does, consider yourself very, very lucky.
     
  12. juramentado

    juramentado lean, mean eating machine

    sorry...double post
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2006
  13. MaverickZ

    MaverickZ Guest

    beltless, what exactly qualifies you to speak on the subject at all?
     
  14. teacher

    teacher Valued Member

    Beltless, there are two easy disarms.
    1 hit the person hard (and/or repeatedly ) on the head
    2 hit the person hard ( and/or repeatedly ) on the hand

    Other disarms do exist and do work but I have only seen them
    1 during cooperative practice
    2 when one person is way better than the other
    and 3 through luck

    If the videos dont impress you with the silky skills displayed that's fine but it is a mode of training that I think is essential. I think one of the other things to remember is that there is not supposed to be a winner. If someone receives two hits to the head for every one that they give out that does not neccesarily mean that they are stupid or careless. Perhaps the last time they tried it they received four hits to the head for every one that they gave out.
     
  15. Big Ash

    Big Ash Bruised but never broken!

    Beltless not sure where in the South of England you are. If you can get to Luton on the 17th September between 1pm and 3pm I'd be more than happy to demonstrate the flaws in you theoretical breakdown of 'easy' disarms. :p

    Alternatively there seems to be plenty of FMAers down this way that could help you out.

    You can talk the talk but can you walk the walk. My guess is you're another teenage keyboard warrior that has won many fights........on the PS2/X-Box/PSP/Game Boy/Other (Delete where appropriate).

    Ash
     
  16. Beltless

    Beltless Banned Banned

    Obviously disarms are not easily performed if you fail to consistently drill their logic and adapt their principles where neccessary. You're all looking at it too black and white, FMAs do treat the hidden psychological factors behind attack and defence with great respect. Whereas some of you seem to regard such ideas as pure fantasy, rather you can only do this or that, nothing more. As such I am not surprised you have difficulty disarming people. The trick behind knife/stick defence is making techniques your own and controlling your opponents movements with your own movements. Think about it, when someone has a knife their technique repetoire decreases by probably a thousand movements as all their attention is on the one hand with this one weapon, 90% of the time that's all they'll use. When you understand that a knife is just a knife and a stick is just a stick, and that the attacker, by having this weapon, is a product of his own limited capabilities, they are much more easily influenced by your deceptive defence. I'm not saying this is an easy thing to accomplish, but it's something to keep in mind when training and must be relentlessly drilled, evaluated, then drilled again. Otherwise get used to having stand-up arm wrestles for the rest of your fighting career.
     
  17. Scotty Dog

    Scotty Dog www.myspace.com/elhig

    Since this thread is now totally off the orig topic, can we get it split to either FMA or Weapons?

    Beltless, are you going to give us any idea at all about your training background & sparring/fighting experiance?
     
  18. Beltless

    Beltless Banned Banned

    Most of what I've said is believed and practised by the more traditional fillipino artists, and not something highly regarded by practitioners across the West. If you want to see my martial arts background you have only to read my profile. Besides, I'm raising discussion onyl here rather than upstage other's experience, I just don't think alot of these fighters from the "brotherhood" are as focused on testing the effectiveness of FMA principles as much as beating down on somebody as quickly and forcefully as possible. There definitely is technique to alot of these fighters, of course, I am by no means comparing what they do to a bar room brawl, but they all seem to have one idea in their head when it comes to fighting, I see little variation in these fighter's approach to full contact. What i mean is, they all kick, elbow, knee and swing just as bad (or good) as each other. They are taking a big step and doing themselves valuable training, but the whole attitude I get is that this brotherhood has found the ultimate solution to street self defence that puts all other people's attempts from the last 2000 years to shame. I just know that we all, even these people, have alot more to learn. Alot of you will probably argue that I am wrong in assuming that these people think they "know it all", but allready I have gotten the response that seems to prove otherwise. I'm sure they are humble mostly, but there's more to martial arts than full contact sparring. Something MMA people forgot which is now why we have such media-induced crap like the UFC. I hope Dog brothers don't go the same way and are open to different approaches in the future, so long as they serve to better and enhance their performance on the mat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2006
  19. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Look, you've managed to insult people who have YEARS on you in the FMA. In fact, as far as I can tell, you haven't actually studied the FMA, other than perhaps in a book. I know you mentioned in a previous thread that you're a JKD Concepts student. Let me tell you for a fact that people on here, who have tried to explain the truth about disarms, have trained under Guro Inasanto's instructors. I have heard Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje use the "Disarm" joke and talk about the functional difficulty of disarms. Did I mention that Guro Inasanto refers to Gaje as his teacher? The same goes for Guro Jun DeLeon.

    Anyone who claims that disarms are easy, or are based on some magic mindset control are quite frankly feeding you a bill of goods that you are more than happy to lap up. Either that or you are misinterpreting thier writings because you don't have the lived experience to know better (I'm leaning towards the latter myself and giving you some benefit of the doubt).

    Look, being that your 18, you currently have far too much book learning and far to little experienced learning. Let me assure you that the folks you're second guessing have both. Quite frankly, the best thin you can do right now is stop typing, pick up a stick and learn by doing.

    After that, please feel free to come back and run your mouth. Up until that point, I'd suggest stopping spewing this type of stuff because right now the only person you're making look foolish is yourself.

    - Matt
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2006
  20. MaverickZ

    MaverickZ Guest

    Birthday:
    May 25, 1988
    Location:
    South of England
    Interests:
    Hop scotch
    Gender:
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    wonderful, so we can safely ignore anything else you may have to say
     

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