florida fight: comments, analysis

Let me be the first to post this here. Hopefully it doesn't get deleted. Youtube video of a fight in Florida:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtl1myuoDH0"]BJJ vs. Kung Fu - Anthony from Bullshido vs Rudy Abel - YouTube[/ame]

Guy in the camo shorts is muay thai/BJJ. Guy in the pants is monkey style/sung family longfist. Comments, analysis, discussion. I'll start:

The lack of the ground game on the KF guy was a big problem, eventually. Not at first, but it was eventually a fight ender. Lack of standup striking from the MT guy was disappointing, but he eventually got a takedown in and made it work for him. More comments from me later today, as it's 5AM in the morning.

I feel it's important to discuss this as either of those two guys could have been me or any of us.

 

Not that i'm an expert, and i'll declare that straight away to prevent any flamo swarzenegger who may enter the thread

But, i was fairly dissapointed. Starting with the BJJ guy, where the hell was his defence? charging straight into the Kung Fu guy without regard for his own head? Look at the 20-23 second mark, BJJ charges kung fu guy, whilst his head is in perfect line of a knee from the Kung Fu guy.

Which leads me to the next point, where the hell was the knee to the head? Please, dont try and grapple him back, knee that head dammit.

Secondly the 31-33 second mark, that was the potential fight ender!! BJJ guy's head completely vulnerable and the kung fu guy with a terrible kick and little intent completely misses. I'm sorry but if you have two good
opportunities to end a fight and don't then you deserve to lose.

Both didn't seem to experienced (could be wrong here) but at least the BJJ guy had heart.

Bek i know that both you and i would've sow choid his ass back to brazil if he was chargin us, or drilled a knee into him, or ran...either way =p

In all seriosuness, as well as having heart the BJJ took his game (grappling) to the KUng Fu guy, which is what the Kung Fu dude should've done instead of tryin to grapple back, keep the fight on the feet.

That's my 2 cents

 

Ok the drama leading to the fight was definitely bigger than the fight itself. The fight wasn't super great but it also didn't completely suck.
Early on Anthony(BJJ) almost got Ko'd and if Rudy(Kung Fu) didn't gas out as much might of had his window of opportunity fo the KO by possible GnP.
Anthony fell back on his grappling skills and that's where he eventually won out against Rudy who has no kind of wrestling experience.
I am glad it was a clean square fight and didn't end up getting Springerized. Classy display all round by both fighters and props to Rudy for finally stepping up after many years of blatant mouthboxing.

Rudy can learn from this as so can Anthony who has said Rudy packs a mean punch.

 

props to both these guys

I'm not really going at this from a KF vs BJJ deal. I come at it from two directions.

#1: How would I stop the KF guy?
#2: How would I stop the MT/BJJ guy?

First off, yes, I know that it's easy to be a Monday night quarterback, as they say, and that in the middle of a fight, it's chaotic and it can get rough to make decisions and to perform, so I'll be the first to take it easy on both fighters.

#1: It's pretty clear that the KF guy's hitting hard. Even his opponent says so (from other boards). Not hard enough or in the right places to KO, but bells were being rung. It looks like he had a rudimentary ground game, as he stuffed two shoot attempts handily with sprawls and at one point was hitting while on his knees, something I haven't been able to do. How do I stop him? If I stay in first gate, he's going clock me eventually with a kick or a strike as he looks pretty mobile at that range and I'm .. well. Not that mobile. You can see that he was able to move to within that range quickly. There are some responses to this. I can angle step forward to either side to hit from his weak angles. I can retreat and punch. I can angle step to catch a kick. If he gets within second gate, in comes the short range striking, which I also have a tough time dealing with. From here, it's tough for me to manuever, so I can take the option to immediately close the gap to clinch or peri-clinch and try for a takedown. Guy knows how to sprawl, so now what? Disengage and try again. To be honest, I would have a tough time with this dude.

#2: I think I would try a similar tactic with this guy. Keep him at range with kicks and knees (as Effejy said). Angle step to hit from weak and unexpected angles. Retreat and punch if need be. Spawl when he shoots from clinch range (which is almost an autonomous reaction for me, I spent hours drilling this), if he gets the takedown, work my escapes, play my guard game with the intent to escape (I have a horrible guard game), and if I can't stand, work to a dominant position (which is a LOT harder than you think, when someone's hitting you in the face), strike from there or try to stand up. Seems like I would have a tough time with this guy, he looks substantially heavier than me, and boy can he take a hit. Heck, he took a bunch of heavy hits and just kept on coming.

This kind of thing basically makes me train all the harder. I could be facing either one of these guys in a ring someday.

 

I noticed that the fight ending position was a north-south mount, the EXACT mount I posted for help on the BJJ forum. Now I REALLY have to drill those escapes!

It's nice knowing I'm not the only one who has a tough time with that one.

 

sent you a PM

 

Again, it only proves that in many (most) cases, MMA is better in the ring.

I think the Kung Fu guy was the better man the first 30 seconds. He avoided the first (rather stupid, I might add) takedown attempt well, and kept pretty good distance and had OK striking. Of course, when the fight went down to the ground, it ended like expected.

Anyway, kudos to both for doing the fight, and even more for the sportsmanship afterwards. Both takes a lot of guts!

 

Well my old KARATE instructor used to say, "tire them out and take them to the ground." He equated fighting to that of a basketball game, have superior conditioning and run the opposition around until they are too tired to defend.

You see it over and over again, even an excellent stand up fighter starts to get tired, then he or she starts to make mistakes, ends up on the ground and then it is a new game... one that good grapplers seem to dominate.

I think that Kung Fu and such teach to end a fight quickly. We use a seven second rule where I train (3 seconds standing and up to 4 seconds ground attack). Regardless of how quickly you are trained to end a fight, the realization has to come that that seven seconds of fight ending might not come in the first seven seconds, but it could come after several minutes of intense combat.

I guess what I'm saying is MMA training tend to make better athletes as well, and they are better suited for dealing with what it takes for longer fights. At least as demonstrated in the ring. IMHO.

 

A minute and a half isnt exactly a long fight.

 

Not for trained fighters, no.

 

Do you really think the end result would have been different if these same two individuals were fighting in a parking lot instead of in the ring? If so, could you tell us why?

 

Very good post! You're dead-on with your observations.

The main point is (ahhhh-gain....) it's very difficult, even when you're landing some blows, to prevent grappling. I thought the grappler dominated throughout because he imposed his game on the kung fu guy from the start.

 

I hope you're joking. Exactly what would have changed the outcome?

The most telling this is that Anthony has only been doing MMA for 10 months. Before that he had off and on BJJ training.

Rudy on the other hand boasted 25 years of Kung Fu (and of course the first excuse will be he didn't have the "real" Kung Fu) which included fight experience. His strikes looked TERRIBLE.
25 yrs and he barely did anything against a NOVICE. He would have been utterly destroyed by anyone with more experience.

Also a 1:22 fight isn't long for as far as KF learning to end a fight quickly it didn't work out to well here. Beating someone with no skill quickly isn't the same as beating someone who knows how to fight back.

 

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe the result would be the same - and maybe the MMA guy would have finished the fight even quicker!

In any case, there would be no referee to stop the fight every 30 seconds. There wouldn't be anything to stop the kung fu guy from kicking the other guy's balls (at least the Kung Fu guy kept _some_ distance occasionally to protect from potential groin kicks). And they might have heavy shoes on, so kicks feel more. Etc, etc, etc.

But, how would the situation change if they were in a bar, and the kung fu guy suddenly attacked the MMA guy? If the Kung Fu guy has a bunch of friends in the bar, would the MMA guy's strategy be as wise as they seem in the ring? (in this particular video)

How would the Kung Fu guy react if he were in a bar with his girlfriend, and the MMA guy comes up and starts a fight?

We don't know.

That's why I said the video only proved how good MMA is in the ring.

 

It didn't actually prove that MMA is better in the ring, it just lent evidence to the assertion that MMA is better in the ring than kung fu (Not that it needed that much more for that particular debate).

By the same token , I think this lends evidence to an argument that MMA trainning prepares you better to fight (In general) Than Kung Fu trainning, all the exceptions you listed have nothing to do with kung fu or MMA's relevance to street fighting, there to do with having mates in the bar and sucker punching people.

Also, my thread was better than this thread by a mile.

 

Depends which style of Kung Fu you train in, depends on your training each usually has a lot of special training methods which the next style along won't have.

 

also depends on which club of that style you train in, and even some teachers have their own varying degrees of training - therefore you can never really say 'fong sai yuk' school has the best kungfu training, as there may be different clubs, and only 1 class of all the clubs train with some form of realism, and thats only when shifu Fred is teaching, as shifu John doesn't like doing 'x' in the lesson.

in general the training in MMA schools is much more standardised then the training in kungfu schools - probably because there is too much infighting between styles, and not enough collaborations.

 

That is definitely true, and I stand corrected.

It's not having to do with having mates in the bar, but rather how to handle these mates and avoid putting yourself in a situation where you are extra vulnerable to these mates.

But, in any case, most MMA people can probably handle themselves excellently in a self defence situation. They would definitely be intelligent enough to know that there is a difference between one-on-one fight in the ring, and a fight for your life "on the street" - and act accordingly.

 

Raise your hand if you wish for the ignorant generalisation of 'kung fu' to cease...
I don't say someones not a good athlete because their long jump sucks...

Kung Fu people, it comprises of many Different styles.

 

agreed there has been a lot of infighting, I am lucky as my sifu pushes us very hard and as he says in here you can make mistakes, out there you won't get that chance, so it's best to practise with as much realism as possible while you learn rather than just going through the moves without feeling what it is like to A) be hit and hard B) the sensation of near misses nothing quite like it C) to understand pain and pressure.

obviously MMA is going to be more standardised it has been developed over the last however many years into a formula and system, Kung Fu even my style is 250+ years old, a lot of them are older.

as I have been told there will always be certain moves that you learn which you will always use to a certain extent in any fight, and there will be others which you will learn to the same proficiency yet won't use as you prefer your "favourite techniques" we get taught lots of various moves and get to choose what we want to use after we master the style, until then we have to practise everything and be able to use it on both arms equally.

So in that respect like other MA's and MMA we also strip away what we personally don't want to use to what we do and find works yet it is all from SPM.

even my sifu and other sifu's before him did the same thing they have there own techniques which they excel at.