First time BJJ

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Trewornan, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    Not been on here long enough to know if that us sarcasm or not lol!

    I genuinely think the aforementioned courses would be a better option to the ground syllabus as taught by the WJJF. Although the WJJF in Ireland are now running their own grappling tournaments. Potentially this may improve their ground skills in the long term as they spend more time rolling and figuring out some stuff they do doesn't work very well. At the moment though there are much better ways to learn ground fighting than the ways taught by the WJJF schools I've observed. Just my opinion.
     
  2. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Stand up too. It's just pre-determined attack & defence scenarios with a choke hold on your bank account :)
     
  3. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Folks, please remember that swearing is against the rules (and that includes masking it or abbreviating it). I don't want to start handing out bans this early in the year. Thank you! :)
     
  4. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    Hi - No Kurtka, OP actually implied the exact opposite of that:

    Then I stand corrected.






    But for the record, outside of the sportive grappling arts (BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, Folkstyle, Greco-Roman, etc) claims of expertise from complete incompetents are the rule, not the exception. (At least when it comes to grappling) Krav and westernized ju-jitsu organizations are huge culprits for this one. Wing chun too, but I'm reluctant to include what they tend to refer to as "anti-grappling" under the same umbrella.[/QUOTE]
     
  5. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    True. Eye gouging is going to be useless if you can't get close to the guy's eyes in the first place.
    a guy's open guard. But again, I'd hope that two guys with martial arts/SD background would be smart enough to deescalate, otherwise they have a bigger problem that has nothing to do with technical skills.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    GOOD BJJ trumps all, crushes your enemies and hears the lamentations of their women for your, no effort required at all!

    ;)
     
  7. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Look at any occupation or hobby and you'll find plenty of jerks. How many sex abuse cases have we seen with priests?
     
  8. Trewornan

    Trewornan Valued Member

    Seems this thread has had a fair bit of posting since I last looked and I felt I should respond to some things.

    I didn't mean to imply that the ground fighting I learn in JJJ and KM would equip me to defeat a BJJer of any experience. The techniques I know are, I agree, basic.

    As others have pointed out, I would hope that two experienced martial artists would have the training and sense to avoid physical conflict (occasional psychopath excepted). As my KM instructor says "we train for the common" - the assumption is that your opponent has minimal (if any) training. That does make sense as I see it.

    The seminar was free - I don't know if the guy got paid at all but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been more than petrol money. I did think a white belt teaching us was odd but he said he had a couple of years experience and belt graduation in BJJ was much slower than in other MAs. He seemed to know what he was talking about. I don't think we should judge him too harshly I don't know the circumstances of how he was asked or why he agreed to do it.

    I've decided that BJJ is something I would probably want to learn at least something of at some point but that I'm better off leaving it until I've reached a level I'm satisfied with in the arts I'm already studying. Particularly since only last week I was thinking that I was finding it tough to maintain the number of hours I've been doing.

    Somewhat concerned by what I'm hearing regarding WJJF.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  9. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I always assume that either 1) my opponent will just fall down and let me arm bar him or 2) I can knock him out with one passionate, eager and overcommitted haymaker. Makes sense to me anyway.



    Only when I've had a few though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  10. Trewornan

    Trewornan Valued Member

    I know ass-u-me and all that, I just think it makes sense to concentrate most of your training on the situations you're most likely to encounter.
     
  11. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I think it makes more sense to train techniques against a resistant and skilled opponent. Then when you get an unskilled opponent… Well, whenever we get a new guy at the gym folks tend to make this face:

    [​IMG]

    (that's me on the right :3)
     
  12. righty

    righty Valued Member

    LOL that might be me to.
    Got one the other night who after rolling (no gi) asked me "Are you a blue belt?"
    Me "HAha, Nooooo"
     
  13. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    None taken. I definitely read his post wrong, my mistake.
     
  14. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    Sure. There's someone in my JJJ lineage who is, not a jerk, but surprisingly hotheaded especially given skill level. I'm sure he wouldn't escalate a situation. That said, that doesn't change much. Trained hotheads who do escalate situations still have a problem that goes beyond technical skills considerations
     
  15. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    That, my friend, is a whole other thread.... :rolleyes:
     
  16. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Probably, but they're out there. Look at the behavior of some combat athletes, boxers, MMAers, that one TKD guy that kicked a coach, heck, look at the Steven Seagal thread.
     
  17. righty

    righty Valued Member

    And that TKD guy who kicked a ref. At the olympics no less.

    There are plenty of douches in the martial arts who go out looking for trouble.
     
  18. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    OK, let's go backtrack a little. The reason the "trained opponent" argument came about is because of OP's point that he trains for the common, meaning assuming his opponent has little to no training. Someone equated that statement with "I assume the fight will be easy". I don't think that's what it means at all. Training for the common mean training for the most likely of situations. Yes, there are trained hotheads out there. No one is contesting that. But how likely is it that you are going to run into a hothead? A hothead who wants to fight you? A hothead who wants to fight despite your attempts to deescalate? A hothead who wants to fight despite your attempts to deescalate and has any training? A hothead who wants to fight despite your attempts to deescalate who has not only training but is an expert martial artist? Just not very likely at all. If that does happen to you, you're just one unlucky sob. No one is contesting that BJJ is a fantastic martial art and that being trained in it can be extremely useful in SD. IMO, BJJ is not a well rounded art. That alone is enough for me to never pick it as my primary SD discipline if I were to pick one and only one - which was one of OP's points as well. I'd rather choose an art that covers most phases of the fight. You could make the point that such arts deliver jack of all trades who may be decent to good at a lot of things but not experts at anything and that would be a fair point, but I would still stick with a comprehensive art. If course, in the best of world someone would cross train in many arts to get all the facets of SD covered, but let's be realistic for 2 minutes. Even though some of the board members do, most people do not spend 10 hours training every week. Especially when it comes to SD, people pick one art and one art only. And when they do, it is my opinion that they pick one that makes them well rounded. It's not because that art doesn't make them expert grapplers that it doesn't make them good grapplers and able to deal with the situation would the fight go to the ground. It's not because that art doesn't cover ground fighting as extensively as BJJ does that it doesn't cover it properly.

    I'm still in the camp of people who think that in a SD scenario, I do not want to go to ground. Yes, you might have no choice, but that still doesn't mean that BJJ - though it might be the best - is the only art who can give you good grappling skills. Context is king. Not only do I think that BJJ is second choice for the street but in some situations, the BJJ approach is the LAST course of action one should choose and is a sure way to end up beat up to a pulp.

    Here are two people I agree with who develop upon that:

    http://strikingthoughts.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/does-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-suck-for-self-defense/

    http://www.wimsblog.com/2013/01/the-myth-of-90-percent-of-fights-go-to-the-ground/
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I wouldn't say wjjf is a comprehensive art, Ive trained with a few dan grades of theirs through the years, and ive out striked and threw them consistantly, there understanding of the context of standing joint locks etc for SD was pretty poor too.

    Ymmv
     
  20. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Sure, so why would you practice poor technique and excuse it with 'he probably doesn't know what he's doing'? A jab is a jab, it works the same way for a beginner as it does for an expert. Doesn't matter if you've taken one day of boxing or a thousand, you'll practice your jab. Just because you're dealing with a self defense scenario rather than a boxing match doesn't mean that you should be content to practice this instead:

    [​IMG]

    Expert nothing, he just has to be better than you. Despite what you say, many, many people have taken martial arts, especially more popular ones like boxing or wrestling. Heck, even rugby, football or hockey players would be quite a lot for most martial artists to handle. The fact that someone is willing to continue to escalate violence against an unknown entity means that they have some confidence in their ability to use violence.

    One of the fascinating things about the bodybuilder vs. Gracie video was not the fact that Gracie won, but how well the body builder did. Using nothing but athleticism and aggression, he was able to take Renzo down. Renzo had an easier time fighting expert martial artists than he did against one large, aggressive and fit opponent. What this says to me is that to even the scales against someone, you can not be content with sub par level grappling (or sub par level striking for that matter).

    Just because an art attempts to cover all phases of the fight does not mean that it will cover any of them well. Most BJJer's are not expert level grapplers, but they have expert level instruction which makes all the difference. It's not a matter of specialization vs generalization, it's a matter of the quality of the training. If Renzo had said "Eh, guy's untrained, I'm sure I could just train subpar grappling and it'll turn out ok," I think the fight would have gone differently.

    It's not a matter of breadth so much as it is a matter of depth.

    Yeah, yeah. Context of the SD scenario dictates your approach. If it's a drunk idiot, BJJ might be a good thing. If it's a gang of hoodlums with steel toed boots, hoofing it might be better. Still doesn't excuse the argument that "subpar grappling is good enough."
     

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