Everyone understands that BJJ is superior to most other arts on the ground. That's not the point. OP's contention - true or false - is that JJJ and Krav Maga provide him eith enough knowledge to defend himself on the ground in most situations i.e. vs. the average guy. Makes me laugh when I hear people say stuff like "what happens if you're up against a BJJer". Beyond of this happening, I'd also like to point out that if two people who train in martial arts and understand self defense get in a fight, I'd say they have a problem that goes beyond any technical aspect of the art they study.
I know exactly what his point was and I made my counter point accordingly and stand by it Against someone who is motivated and trying to do damage it is hard enough for a legit grappler to escape unscathed - a non grappler will have real issues
At any rate - Trewornan, like other have said I also suggest you roll with BJJers. It will be a humbling experience. I too have a JJJ background, BB in hakkoryu. Because JJJ's syllabus is broad, the time spent on the ground is small and the techniques covered basic compared to BJJ - unless one would train 20 hours a week I suppose, but let's be realistic... Whoever said "good enough" = "not the best". What is the best? Sorry to potentially burst someone's bubble, but BJJ isn't the best either. Comparing an average groundfighting art vs BJJ on the ground is all fine and dandy, but what happens if an average BJJer tangles up with an elite boxer and gets clocked before he even get a hand on the guy's collar? That game can be played both ways. Everyone has a plan until they punched in the face. You want the "best"? Then I suggest you start cross training full time: Fencing, Arnis and KM for weapons, boxing, KB, muy thai and KT for striking, wrestling and judo for takedowns and BJJ for subs. Special elite forces training for conditioning. There, that should be about "best". Plus what does "roll against a white belt and see what happens" mean? What kind of white belt? The dude who just walked into the gym for the time or a stripe whose been rolling for a couple of years. And how often? 3 hours a week? 15? Without context, those statements mean anything. Back to OP, I just started BJJ regularly. Basically I can hold my own i.e. stalemate against a BJJ white belt/stripe, any BJJer blue belt or above is just toying with me. That's great though, means there's a lot to learn. Two nights rolled with a 50 yr old brown belt. I couldn't even grab his wrist or collar. Against a white belt w/ stripe earlier that same night, I got position but most importantly he gave me bad advice at some point though as a BJJer, he's sorta supposed to be have more knowledge than me on the ground. Again, context. This guy might be a bad or average wb for all I know. But even would a BJJ white belt handily sub a JJJ bb on the ground, it's ok. I've had karate and TKD black belts join my JJJ school before, and in the realm JJJ they were beginners and easy pickings so to speak.
Sorry, grappling alone doesn't encompass all of self defense. It's only a subset of it. All things being equal, it is not any less hard for a grappler to come out a fight versus a non-cooperative opponent unscathed.
That's very true. There's actually a Renner Gracie video where he addresses emails from BJJers who doubt their BJJ after getting pummeled in street fights. Truth is, the majority of BJJ schools teach sports BJJ and not street BJJ and personally, I think that BJJ is pretty much going to go the way of Judo in that regard.
250lb meathead - incredibly common type - with no training to speak of vs a very, very high end grappler [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho2MUZBtAwM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho2MUZBtAwM[/ame] Place someone here with little to no grappling - or a system that fails to address it properly - and they are pavement pizza Also it would help if you didn't argue a position that isn't being taken. No one said grappling covers all SD - what is being said is that if yoou are going to adress it then do it properly
Hannibal- You may have point that grappling can (occasionally) be used effectively. Under certain controlled circumstances such as non volcanic ground. But what will he do when I roll up with my street sword? (I never get tired of this image).
Because its not like he's selling an online training service is it. If your bjj class only covers Inversions and 50/50 guard your going to get smashed street or sport.
I've seen this video before. What it shows is what a high end grappler can do vs a meathead with little skills. No more, no less. More to the point, it shows what THIS high end grappler can do vs THIS meathead. That in no way means that grappling is the only way to not finish as "pavement pizza" vs meat heads and general and this one in particular. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the fight will always go to ground - most likely because this one did - though it is correct that if it does, one needs to have been properly trained. That in turn does not mean that other arts do not train people properly on the ground. They simply do not train them as extensively - which can be also an issue depending on many factors - namely the opponent's skills and where the fight goes.
Robert Clarke is actually dead and there has been chat of a split in the WJJF. There is a clip on YouTube of an old Gracie Barra training partner of mine tapping out a WJJF black belt when my buddy was an 18 year old white belt with less than a year of BJJ. The WJJF guy was significantly older and heavier :/ I've tried some WJJF classes and they were, in my area, the dictionary definition of a McDojo. A TKD & WJJF student from N Ireland recently died in a "street fight" and the WJJF club he attended distanced themselves from him. Looks bad for business when your students are dying in street fights yet you are teaching " effective self defence". Classy bunch. Back on topic, from a critical point of view the ground drills the WJJF do are sloppy and offer no understanding of the principles of ground control or escape. How much use they would be is debatable, even against someone with no grappling experience. A simple program like the Gracie Academy's combative course or Tim Cartmell's Ground proofing wouldn't take long to learn and would be much much better in my opinion.
Don't ever presume to tell me what I believe or do not believe about the reality of combat - it will not end well for you
I wish I had thought of that before putting in all these hours, I could have just done a simple course that wouldn't take long to learn.
It will not..."end we'll for me"? That's nice. I'm terribly sorry if I misconstrued your position but it sounded to me like you were clearly saying that one is toast as far as SD goes if they're not accomplished grapplers. If that's incorrect, please explain.
Perhaps the message was, being an accomplished grappler is a pretty useful thing to be in a SD situation, as opposed to not being.
I see no real use in comparing the ground skills of a JJJ - whether he comes from a legit school or not - and BJJ practitioners. But yeah, I've read some really bad stuff about Clarke and the WJJF.
The OP said that his krav and JJJ would be sufficient to get by against a "BJJ expert". Hannibal posted that it wouldn't and that it's inferior. You built a straw man around that (absolutely true) statement. Even good krav or JJJ (rare) with solid groundwork (rarer) is still going to be very hard pressed to match average dedicated grappling schools for fundamentals of movement in that range. Nobody is saying that that's all there is or that you will need high level grappling experience in every fight. That's all coming from you. But for the record, outside of the sportive grappling arts (BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, Folkstyle, Greco-Roman, etc) claims of expertise from complete incompetents are the rule, not the exception. (At least when it comes to grappling) Krav and westernized ju-jitsu organizations are huge culprits for this one. Wing chun too, but I'm reluctant to include what they tend to refer to as "anti-grappling" under the same umbrella.
No offense Kurtka, but I don't think that's what he said. I guess throws some ambiguity on that, but I think that's a discussion of 'teh dirty' rather than bjj vs. krav/jjj.