Right just got back from me first session and I'm a very tired but very happy person. Was pretty much just randori today which tbh was a nice intro to the art and went suprisingly well with two tapouts when I normally struggle like mad to get them, but admitedly that was probably them going easy on me. I've got a question though and that's how much groundwork differs from bjj? All the randori was on the ground and force of habit I tried to pull guard at the start everytime and people seemed really unused to that position save one bloke who passed beautifully straight away. This isn't a put down at judo just an observation but it seemed to me not only with the guys I sparred but watching other groups that because you can pin in judo there seemed to be a lot of emphasis on that and not so much on transitions. For example I pulled two rubber guards, a sprawl position, and a guillotine today which I've never managed against bjj guys. Again I appreciate as a noob I probably was treated very nicely but still. But while I'm at a disadvantage over the pinning (with my fitness so poor I'm used to being able to rest on my back and breath. Not the case here!) does my BJJ background give me some advantage over standard judo ground work? Anyway, the class was really good and while it was nice to feel my grappling gives me a small advantage over other new people I do feel that this art is going to force me to adapt it and, if I'm right about judoka not being used to the positions I am, finding a way to use them with the pins. I didn't get a chance to do any standing work today so I'm looking forward to that too. I think I can see why people new to martial arts get recommended judo so strongly and i think I've made the right decision to go back and basically start over. Looks like I'm going to be around this forum more often :hat:
It differs quite a bit not in techniques but because there is less time spent on it and because positions like the guard are much less emphasised. You will find that your BJJ background helps but you will need to familiarise yourself with the difference in rules... though you probably don't need to worry about that as a beginner. My experiences would tally with yours but then it's kind of to be expected given the primary emphasis in Judo is it's stand-up throws. You may also find that people frequently turtle and give you their backs which is a semi-valid defence given Judo rules. The simple answer is yes it is definitely an advantage but it begins to disappear the higher the grade of your opponent. It's also relative to how much experience you have in BJJ, what belt are you in BJJ and how long did/have you trained? Standing randori still feels like a different world to me than the groundwork and I also find that many of the folks with less than impressive groundwork are much more impressive stood up. It will be interesting to see how you find it. On a related note it seems to be a couple of people with BJJ backgrounds who have started training in Judo relatively recently (myself included) so it will be interesting to see how our experiences compare. So far I'm very much enjoying it though I presently feel a bit frustrated during the standup randori because a)I'm crap and b)I have to repeatedly fight the impulse to just let it go to the ground .
All this talk of BJJ and judo has me excited! I've wanted to add judo to my training for a while now...maybeit's time I got out and did it.
Good news for the ground then and more worry about trying the stand up Yeah the pinning really threw me but I'm really interested how my groundworks going to develop. I seem to have an advantage using bjj so I think I'll keep at it but, as you said, it needs adapting to a new rule set. Be fun to see the results Including the work I did in mma about a year or just over. I'm not sure how the belt system works but I sparred orange and blue belts today, no white belts sadly other than a woman who started with me who they wouldn't let me spar I've never been a comfortable striker other than my lead leg kick so I'm happy its all grappling standing up but I'm going to have big problems not shooting or having a cage/wall to push people against. Interesting. Well i'm going to be updating my journal after pretty much every session so feel free to have a look and compare!! DO IT!!! I put judo off for a month or so just being a lazy twit and i wish I hadn't
I know what you mean about the grappling, the amount of groundwork I think depends on your teacher though... Some emphasize newaza more, other emphasize tachiwaza more. There are some judoka that are AMAZING at the newaza, but usually at the lower levels (up to about shodan) the focus appears more on getting dominate position than getting the submission as is your experience in bjj-I think judo and bjj compliment each other very well and improve the the practice of the other in many ways. Anyways, happy training!
Judo is a great style, I wish I'd started it earlier. Your BJJ should help when you are have your opponent in your guard, Judoka often try for chokes in that position and can leave themselves open to armbars and triangles. Also look up Shime-garami and Ryo-hiza-gatame. Watch out using the guillotine though - I've been told off for trying it before and it can count as a neck crank. The problem I find with groundwork is that I'm always looking for a submission and I forget that I can actually win with a pin. Remember, no leglocks! I'm much more comfortable on the ground than I am standing, but a good Judo club will devote a decent amount of training to both. I recommend picking up a copy of Syd Hoare's book, 'The A-Z of Judo' as it has a good description of the throws, strangles and locks you will be using.
Will do!! I'd say it's a neck crank if you're performing it wrong and just pulling not choking (not saying you weren't) Subs are more fun!! And the few times I had someone in side control adn could of pinned them I found it easier to sort of let them bridge, they got a shoulder off the ground but left me an arm to try and kimura them with. And I was gutted when I was told no leg locks! My heel hook used to be one of the things I could actually win with and no I can't use it It's only hour sessions with a small class so I assume he alternates them each week I'll have a look for it. thanks.
It's one of those techniques that can depend on the ref as to whether they allow it or not. I was told that it was 'legal' but better off avoided due to the ease with which it can be perceived as a neck crank. I agree, I get really frustrated when my partner just goes for the hold down (or even just turtles up) as I'm trying to get a submission. My club is pretty good though, we do regular ne waza randori so I get the chance to work on submissions, pins and movement. Some good advice I've been given is 'position before submission'. If you can work on your positioning, the chances are it will lead to a submission or even just a pin.
That's fair I suppose especially if it's not common in judo. I didn't look for it though I was just holding someone down to stop them passing guard, he slipped to the side and I thought I might as well have a go. Like I said I've never had any success with it before so I don't intend to go looking for it. I don't have too much of a problem with it it's just because my fitness is so poor (five mins grappling and I'm breathing hard ) and I can't just rest on my back. Still, it's a good incentive to get off my butt and do some cardio. Rear naked!! Wasn't that a line in Never Back Down? I'll keep that one in mind
Great book, not a step by step instructional, but still awesome. I like this very much: Amazon.com: Kodokan Judo Throwing Techniques (9784770023308): Toshiro Daigo: Books And Id recomend this for the BJJ judo hybrid, including a great section about how to train both intelligently: Amazon.com: Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu: Revolutionizing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (9780977731589): Dave Camarillo, Erich Krauss: Books and for something free and great: http://www.judobjj.com/
One more question: Obviously on the ground you'e not allowed to stand up (don't knwo about competition but if you're sparring on the ground) but are you allowed to put your feet on the floor at all? I amde the mistake of standing up to drive someone over and got told off but i normally put my feet on the floor at the start when I roll back into guard or when I'm controlling someone from my back. So is this allowed? Thanks in advance people!
Yes, you are absolutely allowed to put your feet on the floor. You even see actual standing in newaza sparring sometimes, usually when one is standing over a turtling uke and gripping them by the belt and collar to deadlift them up and attack an arm or insert hooks.
Thanks for that. Since you mentioned turtling, I know judokas are taught the rear naked choke so it just seems a bit wierd to me that people resort to turtling even though it makes a pin difficuilt. Surely it's easier to try and shrimp out of side control or at least get a shoulder off the mat, or wrap an arm up with your legs to break the pin, rather than let someone get your back?
I think no closed guard and a 30 second time limit means turtling is quite effective, then again theres always the juji roll - Juji Gatame Roll Video by RISING SUN - MySpace Video
Not only are they taught the rear naked choke/hadaka jime, but also Okuri eri jime, kataha jime, sode guruma jime, katate jime, and other chokes that can all be applied from the back (as well as juji gatame/armbar). See: http://judoinfo.com/shime.htm for the chokes I mentioned. Despite that, turtling is still common in Judo. There are three influences leading to turtling: 1) In competition, you will be stood up in relatively short order from the turtle, as long as you can deny your opponent any "progress" in the eyes of the referee for whatever time they deem sufficient. As most referees have a fuse of about two seconds (thanks to the IJF promoting this behavior in their international level referees, it trickles down), even judoka very deficient in newaza can pull their lapels up to their ears and be back to standing in a matter of moments. Therefore, practicing your turtling in randori helps you to eliminate any obvious openings that might be exploited in shiai. 2) It really is not easy to shrimp out from side control and recover guard or whatever. A proper pin, ESPECIALLY in a gi environment where they can latch onto your clothing and lock down, is extremely difficult to escape unless your ground skills are superior to your foes. Hell, I'm just a BJJ blue belt and I have held BJJ brown belts and judo blackbelts sandan to rokudan in kami shiho gatame/north south and Kashiwazaki-style mune gatame for basically as long as I wanted. Once a pin is locked in, it's locked in. In BJJ, you can shrimp away partly because the top guy wants you to move, so as to create opportunities for him to submit you or transition to mount or whatever. In Judo, all you have to worry about is holding them down for 25 seconds. Or 20 now, whatever it is. Also, getting a shoulder off of the mat does not stop the pin count. Judo differs from wrestling in that regard. As long as you were pinned flat, you have to turn yourself so your back is no longer exposed to the mat before the timer stops. Yes, you can sometimes catch a leg, especially if the Judo guy pinning you is unfamiliar with that tactic. But if they are, it's a simple mat to turn their hips into kuzure kesa gatame/underhook-scarf-hold to keep that leg out of your reach as soon as you go for it. (assuming you were talking about side control here) 3) There are no points awarded for back control in Judo. Sadly, not even a completely flattened out back control is recognized. Therefore, it is not as feared to have someone on your back as it is to have someone pinning you. If you manage to hold them off from submitting you for several seconds, after all, the ref will likely stand you up.
