Fending off a sexual assault

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by illyria1013, Apr 19, 2004.

  1. totality

    totality New Member

    what are you on about now, hedgehogey?? you can't possibly think you're 145 lb. woman can survive the G'n'P skills of the last freaking emperor, fedor emelianenko, do you??

    wait...this isn't about the grand prix? crap...;)
  2. Nevada_MO_Guy

    Nevada_MO_Guy Missouri_Karate_Guy


    Hello Hedgehogey,

    Thanks for your 'insightful' reply.

    I, of course, do not wish to get a woman raped. Just putting out information....that is factual.....and unbiased.
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Groundwork is a bit like car insurance - you shouldn't rely on it, but if you wipe out it is good to have it!

    Breakaways iclude stomps, kicks, gouges, knees and any technique that will distract an assailant long enough to get away.

    The vast majority of grappling moves will not work in isolation and of tried they will get you pounded very quickly. The skill level is too high to rely on for an "everyday" woman. If we ae talking about a TRAINED woman I have less of an issue, but even then I am doubtful of her chances if she tries to "oma plata" a rapist

    Grappling is and always should be a last resort in "the street" (tm)

    If you cannot feel a gouge then you've never been gouged properly.

    I an intriuged by your statement "the only one I've seen". So you have an exceptionally limited experience - practically nil. That is a very poor representative sample. I am not boasting, but I have far more experience in this matter than you. Learn from it.
  4. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Dude, these are rapists. Hardened criminals. Not larry, curly or even more. They are expecting that stuff. They don't care if they get poked in the eyes.

    Say WHAT? I am unsure of how to respond to this statement except of course with the standard "No, the evidence shows that grappling moves work under pressure, and indeed you have to look no farther than the latest pride, where a pure grappler defeated a pure striker (leko) to confirm this." Wait, that wasn't standard at all.

    Look, here's what a triangle is. You are a woman. A man has pinned you on your back. You don't want to be there, but that's too bad. He's pulling your pants down, but he left one arm inside.

    Now what do you do:

    1: Try to gouge eyes which are damned hard to reach from there, considering his head is between your knees?

    2: Triangle him, thus rendering him unconscious.

    See my quote.

    Will someone please try to gouge out my eyes! Anyone?

    And how many have you seen? I don't mean told about. I mean seen, with your eyes. That's what I was limiting it to, as I don't like anecdotes.

    Look, I don't see how you can deny that most rapes involve grappling. In order to initiate the rape, the rapist MUST GRAPPLE. And when he grabs the woman THEY ARE GRAPPLING. Just like that.

    Let me repeat: In order to complete a rape you must grapple with your victim. Unless you KO them before hand and rape them while they're unconscious, it is physically impossible for a rapist to rape without grappling.

    And those disengagement techniques don't work when someone's grappling with you. You, me, and the evidence all know that.

    Look at that video of a woman being attacked next to an elevator for further proof.
  5. Mort

    Mort New Member

    That's stupid. You can't tell me that if someone jammed their thumb up to the 2nd joint into your eye socket that you could just shrug it off! You would be in pain, I don't care if you're the damn Hulk. And you'd more than likely never use that eye again.

    I'm not saying it would be easy to do that in a fight or that you should rely on it, but to simply state that it wouldn't bother a rapist or 'hardened criminal' is a huge pile of bull. We're all human and all have human weaknesses regardless of whether we know how to grapple or not.

    Sorry for butting in.
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Wrong - they will go down the same as anyone else. Look, if you try and assault my wife you will go blind (assuming she hasn't starched you with her left hook) and she is not a big girl! Gouges WORK - why do you have such a hard time grasping this fairly fundemental concept?

    Most of these criminals are not expecting ANYTHING or they wouldn't attack. You should study the psychology of attack more - John Douglas has written some excellent work in the U.S., and have you checked out Geoff Thompson yet? A bite will work for better than any half-assed submission attempt. Have you tried Kino Mutai? Do do - it's great (coincidentally it is also how I got my nickname)

    Read it again. I LIKE GRAPPLING! It is great - I grapple (and I flatter myself I grapple quite well) but like anything IN ISOLATION it has holes in it.

    I think first off I need to clear up something. When talking about self-protection we are talking in "average" terms. MMA proves that AT THEHIGHEST LEVELS grapplers TEND to come out on top. Reality for "joe blow" is very different.

    If you'll permit me an anecdote: -I joined the Police with a girl named Sue. Sue was slightly built but held a Dan grade in Judo and was highly skilled. I used to like training with her to learn her Judo whilst I showed her Ju-Jitsu. I had a friend who trained with us too. He was about 5'9" and around 170lbs - not a big guy. But he had an aggressive streak a mile wide. When we "rolled" I could beat him easily as I was bigger and more skillful (plus my aggresive streak is a mile and a half!).

    Sue on the other hand did not manage to submit him once. NOT ONCE. He was too aggressive and too big. Now Sue was damn good, but couldn't finish him. How the hell would an average woman have managed it? She wouldn't.

    Grappling to get space is great - essential even. But submissions in the street? That is wholly unrealistic. If you think otherwise you should really come and visit where I work - you would see a very different side.

    With you so far...
    WTF? Why would his head be between your knees? I am sorry hedge but in all the sexual assaults I have dealt with this set-up has never once happened. You are using MMA to equate to the real world and have formulated a theory.

    Find me one report of a woman submitting a rapist (or potential rapist). I'll find you numerous where a gouge, scratch to the eyes or bite worked. To say they don't is pure ignorance - and willful ignorance at that.

    Which proves what? Grappling should always be a last resort and the last place you want to be is on the floor no matter what the circumstances.

    Get a partner and ask them to REALLY go for you. Or if you are ever in Manchester PM me! I can assure you of an epiphany :)

    Nor do I. I DO like witness statements, forensic reports, scene examinations, suspect interviews and crime reports. It's what we Police call "evidence" and I have dealt with it by the bucketload.

    Apologies, I misintepreted what you said and took grappling to mean groundfighting. Yes it is a grapple.

    No, you and your Pride FC videos know that. Myself, mental health workers, carers and goodnes knows how many crime reports know that breakaways are evry bit as effective as anything else in confrontations in effecting an escape. Hedge, these are EMPIRICAL - look it up. You can say "I don't like it" or "It won't work in MMA" and I'll buy it.

    To say "they don't work" is blatantly untrue - and if you haven't seen evidence to the contrary you haven't looked in the right places.
  7. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    What evidence do we have that they work?

    Gouges working appears to be a just so story.

    Now i'm keeping an open mind. I concede there are places where an eyegouge would work. But i'm not going along with the panacea view you seem to have of them.

    But here's several things you gotta do first:

    1: You gotta be positionally dominant, or at least using guard.

    2: You gotta control the wrists so he doesn't pull your fingers back.

    3: You gotta control the head so he doesn't jerk his head out of the gouge, or bite your fingers.

    In other words, you gotta know how to grapple.

    Now wether or not all that would be better than slapping on a submission is debatable.

    But simply trying to eyegouge without the required physical, athletic base is folly.

    I think they'd be expecting to recieve some fighting back. I don't think any rapist is dumb enough to think a woman will just lay back and make it easy for him.
    That's why it's rape. It's nonconsensual.

    Will it now? Last time I checked a succesful submission pretty much rendered a man hors d' combat.

    Now biting has it's place too, but, though painful, it's not debilitating unless it's a BIG bite on a major artery.

    I've seen vunak's article on it. Note how he says that it requires a grappling based delivery system, and reccomends BJJ for exactly that.

    Everything in isolation has holes.

    But grappling is one of the most, if not the most important physical skills for a woman to have in self defense.

    I AM joe blow. I am about 140-150 pounds.

    I've beaten much bigger strikers.

    Did the aggresive friend also know any grappling?

    Note also that judo is focused a lot more on throwing than submissions.

    Anyway, do you really think sue could finish him with an eyegouge? You yourself said he was more aggresive. He'd probably eyegouge first!

    I fail to see how breaking a man's arm is "unrealistic". I myself was tapped out by a smaller woman during my first month of BJJ.

    As long as we're using anecdotes, i've seen it happen several times.

    It's far from easy.

    But it happens.

    I said that because he's looking down to make sure he's getting her pants off.

    If he's still trying to pin her down, he can't remove her pants because his weight is pinning her down.

    Find me one video of that. I don't trust reports.

    Maybe. That all depends.

    But if you don't know how to grapple, you're going there, like it or not.

    It happened to me once. Had eyes gouged from backmount.

    Didn't do much.

    Groundfighting happens too. A rapist is trying to take a woman to the ground, and we both know when that happens you'd better know your stuff down there.

    There are such reports for every retarded technique out there. Every "lethal str33tfighting" system can rely on testimony from LEOS. As can aikido.

    Hell, john perkins himself relied on that same arguement.

    As do the SCARS people.

    Of course if you really want to see a policeman grappler's opinion, look up grappler240 on rec.martial-arts. He's a SWAT team member, who's succesfully used BJJ submissions many teams (even defeating the dread multiple attackers).

    Pics? Video? Anything?

    There's a video on this very website of a woman being assaulted. She is immediately grappled and put on the ground.

    PS: are you really an MMA instructor?
  8. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    Of course Kimo lost. I'm not denying that. The point here is that Royce won with a very small margin (almost Pyrrhic), and if he did not manage to manouver Kimo into such a position he would have lost badly. Comparing this to the rape scenario, a woman does not have the gifts Royce has in terms of strength, speed and skill (noting that the Gracie family has been doing this for years).

    I am only trying to point out ot you that Royce had the conditioning to withstand the beating Kimo gave him. If he didn't, he would have been beaten a lot sooner. I do not think a woman who just attended a few classes has the level of conditioning Royce has.

    That's not so bad considering that the novice does not know anything better. Besides, the one the novice is hanging on to may get tired. Something which a guard (and a clinch)is also designed for.

    Biting like a rabid dog will work. And despite what you are saying to Hannibal, gouges do work (especially for females who keep long thumbnails).

    Yes you did. Did you also read the 2nd sentence of the post you quoted me on? I said you may have the advantage over him in knowledge and in skill.

    Of course. But it is also the last place a woman should be when about to be raped. A woman may get slammed on the pavement if she is not skillful enough. In a contest between strength and skill, the former usually wins over if a person is not good enough.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2004
  9. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    For one, royce was quite a bit smaller than kimo. Kimo obviously juiced, too.

    Two, what exactly do you expect of him? Perfection every time? Kimo had four consecutive UFCs to study royce's strategy and prepare a counter. The fact that he still lost is very telling.

    That's right. Conditioning is very important in any violent confrontation, anyone who doesn't think so is obviously unacquinted with violence.

    After only a few classes most people aren't equipped to defend themselves at all. Being able to defeat a determined attacker with your bare hands takes months and years of hard work.

    There are no quick fixes.

    Possibly an unskilled person. I sure wouldn't reccomend clinging on for dear life. Using hip movement and flowing to another technique when one doesn't work is far better.

    Like I said, biting and eyegouging have their place, but they are not a panacea. Paul vunak himself says that kino mutai requires a grappling delivery system to work, and he reccomends BJJ for that.
    Biting and gouging do not happen in a vacuum.

    These same factors apply to biting as eye gouges:
    1: You gotta be positionally dominant, or at least using guard.

    2: You gotta control the wrists so he doesn't pull your fingers back.

    3: You gotta control the head so he doesn't jerk his head out of the gouge, or bite your fingers.

    In other words, you gotta know how to grapple.

    What's your point? That it was unfair because I was more knowledgeable? That bjj requires skill? Isn't using skill to defeat aggresion the entire point of MA?

    I'm saying that wether it's good to be there or not, a woman will usually find herself with a rapist in her "guard" wether she likes it or not. It's incredibly hard for two TRAINED men of equal size to stay off the ground even if they want to stay up. Factor in the rapist's greater physical attributes AND the element of surprise AND the fact that the rapist is TRYING to take the woman to the ground and you have a recipe for a whole lot of ground grappling.
    I would, in fact, venture to say that a signifigantly larger percentage of rapes and attempted rapes go to the ground than ordinary streetfights.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2004
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    This debate is highlighting one of the problems with message boards as opposed to face to face - certain points are required to be re-emphasised or expained, and that takes time. However, it is proving fun.

    Hedge, first I will say that Iam finding your new style of debate much more refreshing - you are less overexcited and aggressive in the posts. Nice one!

    Am I an MMA instructor? I don't instruct anything anymore (The job won't allow it) but since you ask the answer is...sort of. I train and fight MMA style because I love it. I used to teach a JKD/JJ/kickboxing hybrid for a time (and my old assistant instructor has just won a Gracie Barra comp). Howver, I was also under the British Combat Asssociation which is concerned with self-protection at all levels.

    I have trained with some awesome guys over the years including Mick Dempster (former world light-heavy MT champ - kicks like a mule), the AWESOME Jack McVicker (possibly the nicest guy I have ever met in my career as a martial artist) and Lee Banda (Kali world champion and JKD man - a very close friend too). Currently I train with Steve Critchley (Sambo gold medallist and general nutter but a great fighter/teacher). But with all these guys I absorbed what was useful and placed what I didn't like on a back burner.

    In all my years of training I have found that things in the real world are very different than the dojo - my time in the police has confirmed that not only for me but also for those who are victims of crime. When I give you an "anecdote" it is based upon hours of investigation. research and consultation - slghtly more than just a "story" I am sure you will agree! Remember that in nearly every post you have made you too have made refernce to an anecdote or story - so are they acceptable or not? :)

    Now, to some specifics-

    1. I said all along a bit of grappling knowledge is important so there is no argument from me there. I do have a habit of playing D/A sometimes - but if you are asking if a would prefer to teach a woman to gouge or to grapple (assuming they are "kept seperate") then I am sorry but I will take the gouge. There is much more of an art to it than you think. If you mix it with grappling then POW! So we are in agreement (sort of).

    3. With Sue and the other combatant, he did not know poop about grappling so I still stand by my point. And with the gouge you took - sparring by any chance? Then I doubt it was meant to take yer' eyes out! Experiment with someone willing to try and REALLY hurt (but who still knows when to stop - it is hard but can be done)

    4. Most rapists DO NOT expect the victim to fight or they would not have selected them. Principally it is a "power thing" as much as sexual (killer Harvey Glatman for instance was impotent with any sign of a struggle). Also, no rapist will ever look to where panties are - he knows without looking. The time to attack will be when he "unzips and produces" which gives the victim a chance to attack. Many rapists use a horrible reverse approach and get "submission before position" (i.e. mental compliance by the victim before the actual assault) and adrenalin will kick in and leave the victim with little technical recall, rendering many techniques (such as submissions) inadmissable mentally.

    5. Ask Holyfield if bites hurt - his reaction gave a lot of time to run off if Tyson had chosen to do so. I do not have a big thing about bites and gouges - generally I will have knocked the assailant cold by the time it gets that far - but for a woman vs man situation they are far, far better than going toe2toe as the require no strength or real skill level (comparatively speaking that is)

    6. You may only be 140 or so, but you are trained (and from the sounds of it) trained hard! "Joe Blow" (or Josephine) is not and has not - remember we are really talking about these untrained and unskilled people when we discuss these sorts of attacks. That is why I would advocate my line of combat over yours. BUT if the individual is willing to train then YOU are correct - and would find me advising the same things

    Lets be honest, between the two approaches is a lot of middle ground. And I have to say that a right cross on the chin is probably more useful than anything either you or I have suggested so far! The debate is goodthough and gives others a chance to look,learn, accept or reject - then we all grow
  11. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    My "standard" style of posting is the way I deal with delusional chi farters. I figure if I debated like this with them the points would just go over their heads.

    1. And i'm saying TEH G0\/G3 is useless without TEH GR4PPl_3. As I said before in order to use gouging you must:

    A: You gotta be positionally dominant, or at least using guard.

    B: You gotta control the wrists so he doesn't pull your fingers back.

    C: You gotta control the head so he doesn't jerk his head out of the gouge, or bite your fingers.

    Very hard to do without grappling.

    2: Where's number two?

    3: It was at a sample class at an RBSD school which shall remain nameless, while we where drilling. He really tried to stick em in there.

    Again, I have seen plenty of counter examples. The entire history of bjj is one long string of small people beating big people, anyway.

    But never let that make you think that conditioning and size don't matter. They do, very much!

    4. Then perhaps most rapists are stupid?

    Where did we get this old chestnut from, anyway? Was it just something some RBSD instructor made up, now everybody caught the meme? It's like "A real street fight lasts only three seconds."

    Did someone do a survey of rapists, questioning their attitude? Even if they did that wouldn't account for the thinking of many rapists who got away with it.
    Anyway, submissions are useless when there's adrenaline? Getting up in front of thousands of people with a lot of money on the line while nearly naked to fight someone who's been training for months to specifically beat YOU doesn't produce adrenaline?
    Fighting a huge man in a no rules match with the century old honor of your family's style doesn't produce adrenaline?
    Vale Tudo training (or any kind of full contact training) offsets the effects of an adrenaline dump, by making the student familiar with it.

    Furthermore, if you encounter a rapist who quits at the first sign of struggle, damn are you lucky! If that's who attempts to rape you, there's no point in training anything in the first place! Just flail away, anything works.

    5:I never reccomended a woman go toe to toe with a man. If she's not in grappling range, she's far enough away to start running!

    See the above factors for eye gouging. They also apply to biting. Paul vunak himself said that kino mutai needs a grappling delivery system, and reccomends BJJ for it!

    And of course holyfield was in a competition where biting is illegal. To jump back and overreact when fouled is standard procedure! Gets the ref's sympathy.

    6. We are? I don't think there's any real way to teach hand to hand skills to someone who isn't willing to train.
    It's logically impossible. How can you teach them anything if they won't train?
    Are you just giving them self defense "tips", or what? Good luck teaching anybody something useful verbally, in five minutes.
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Training to go to but very quickly,

    1. #2 fell off. I can't remember what it was!

    2. Adrenalin in MMA is very different. You know you will be fighting, you have trained for it, you have a pretty good idea of who your opponent will be, you know that you can quit if it gets too hot.

    A rape is sudden, unexpected, unplanned, dirty with unknown consequences

    3. Chestnut? It's far more realistic than "head down". How do you think the rapist rapes unless he produces? I would suggest that in terms of BJJ it would be a good time for an armbar (one arm posted to press down - think about it)

    4. Yep, wrists need to be free - but by the same token they need to be for any submission n'est pa?

    5. If someone grabs you from the front or pins you against a wall (very common attacks in city centre sexual assaulta) then you can gouge them without undue difficulty

    6. I gave someone a "tip" once that they used two days later. They do work from time to time you know!

    They are the most common kind which means your advice now = my advice!

    Take care, see you after training!
  13. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    Federal victimization studies show that women who resist are not injured any more than those who don’t. Studies of more than 3,000 assaults done by the Model Mugging system of SD, show that half of all attackers will leave if the woman indicates she is willing to resist. Think about that. One half of all the guys will break off the attack if you even 'act' like youre going to cause problems.

    So now you must be prepared for the other half who decide to continue their attack.
  14. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

  15. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    I don't expect anything from him. My point about it is also in the statement you quoted me on.

    I think Kimo participated first in UFC 3. After UFC 4 I don't think Royce Gracie fought in the UFC anymore except on the superfights. When he joined after UFC 3, I think Kimo was beaten by competitor other than Royce.

    Yes you have to know how to grapple. But eye gouges and biting do work.

    My point is that in order to overcome somebody who has the advantage over size and strength, a person must have tremendous advantage over the former in skill. A woman attacked does not usually have this kind of advantage. And going down on the ground increases the odds in favor to the attacker significantly.

    This is not true. It is not that hard to stay off the ground provided that you have the balance, the strength, and the skill to counter takedowns.

    Yes. The ground is favorable to the rapist because he eliminates the flight option while restricting the power of the blows he might recieve from the victim. On top, the rapist also has the better position in using strength and size for subjugation.

    This is why the woman should stay off the ground.
  16. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Is the original poster still reading this?

    They have their place. But grappling is a prerequisite to use them succesfully.

    1: Like I said a million times in this thread (please listen this time) wether or not it's good to be there or not, most of the time a woman usually WILL NOT HAVE A CHOICE IN THE MATTER.

    See my quote.

    Countering takedowns comes from grappling. Paradoxically, being unskilled in ground grappling means you are MORE likely to go there against your will.

    But NOT within a skillful person's guard. This has been proven countless times.
    Look, skill is required in self defense. There are no quick fixes. H2H fighting takes hard work and hard sparring.

    Wether or Not. No choice. So must know. You know the drill.
  17. dontcallmebruce

    dontcallmebruce New Member

    If a quick escape is not possible in the initial stage, might be wise to wait till the attacker has unzipped, of dropped his pants before launching into an attack. He will instinctively feel more vulnerable and temporarily distracted.
    If victim haseven 1 moment of opportunity or advantage , she must use it to the max. She only gets once chance and it has to work.That is attack so ferociously so that he cant get up and chase her when she makes a get away.

    I recommend:
    1. Poking eyes
    2. Punching the throat
    3. Deep Scratching ( collecting DNA)
    4. Screaming
    5. Bite his nose OFF!
    6.Stomp on his foot/ ankle
    7. BREAK his finger
    8. Stab him with a pen

    If she manages to temporarily neutralise him, she shd then grab his foot and twist it so he gets a severe sprain at the hip joint or stomp on his ankle , kick him in his head and remove ONE of his shoes and toss it real far ( makes it harder for him to chase her )
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I was kind of with you up until the shoe.....
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    1. The majority of FAILED rapes were fought of by women who just went loopy - so yes I suppose I am saying that it CAN work. Remember that few people are willing to invest as much time as you (or I) in training so they need basic, solid advice. I suppose that is where I have been coming from. Your advice IN THIS CATEGORY is flawed

    which leads me on to....

    2.Are we? OK. In this instance I agree with you entirely. Combat bases system on a MT/BJJ combination basis. Higher awareness through physical effort and exertion - "the more you sweat, the less you bleed"

    At least you aren't removing shoes...
  20. KungFuGrrrl

    KungFuGrrrl Valued Member

    ok listen up
    my situation was a bit different, domestic violence (1995), but he was going to rape too.
    ended up breaking by back, multiple skull fractures, two concussions ,smashed my nose had to be rescnstructed from the inside, dislocated shoulder BUT

    The detectives say because (prior to my Kung Fu, I was a boxer) of my boxing abilities, I did NOT die!

    In once instance that I recall, I went over his hook to my face with a right cross hit him in the face with a couple of jabs, front kicked in the groin.
    and THAT they said stopped his rage to which would have ultimately killed me.

    I say FIGHT with a VENGENCE FIGHT with all your MIGHT and DO NOT STOP
    no MATTER WHAT!!!!!!!

    it is YOUR life do NOT let anyone TAKE that from you!
    I didn't and now I am an advocate for battered women and teach them
    Tai Chi and ways to overcome the trauma induced anxiety they suffer because of their suffering.

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