Fending off a sexual assault

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by illyria1013, Apr 19, 2004.

  1. jimmytofu

    jimmytofu A majority of one

    I would be inclined to agree with Hedgehogy for once, as I was under the impression that the majority of rapes are carried out by someone that the victim knows - hence a good chance you are already sitting / lying when things become sinister.
     
  2. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Okay, can I tell you what is and isn't grappling ;)

    First of HH, can you at least try to not devolve every thread your post in into a 'BJJ vs every idea everyone who's never practiced BJJ has ever had' thread.

    Secondly, as a fellow proponent of said grappling arts I'm sure your aware the levels of skill involved in becoming 'proficient'. (At this point I'd like to note that the quickest increase in grappling skills in a students training normally occurs over the first 8 weeks when they learn to use skill instead of strength).

    Most women don't have the inclination or the desire to train hardcore grappling, most men are significantly heavier than women. To learn to effectively grapple with someone twice your weight is going to take a significant time of dedicated training, something most women don't want to do.

    I do see where your coming from mate and I would tend to agree with you, but I have a couple of female friends who've been raped, so forgive me if I get a bit heated with this topic. I've also helped run several women only SD courses where we've had rape victims, most of these women are interested in avoidance tactics rather than physical skills, this is interesting to not as they have actually lived through these attacks.

    Anyway, back to the topic!

    Fight, you never know what the aggressors final intention is.

    Cheers,

    Col
     
  3. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Just like to throw in a couple of things from my limited experience (as a prison officer ~ not a rapist!). You are more likely to be raped by a person you know. As for strangers, the idea that it will be some muscle bound animal is a rareity. Who would you be instinctly wary of, a 6' animal or a 5' pleb? One of the most viscious attackers I've come across was the later.

    On the use of grappling. It sure won't do you any harm. Remember that there are other ways to incapacitate a victim. The use of a "blitz" attack, a weapon or forcing the victim face down will generally incapacitate rapidly.

    Many many moons ago I heard it suggested that women should offer very little resistance, if any, in the initial attack. Then explode with extreme violence. I guess the theory was the attackers gaurd was down, so you are likely to inflict more damage.
     
  4. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    At the risk of getting indelicate, I would have to ask what kind of "pants" we are talking about (the Levi's kind or the Victoria's Secret kind)? Besides, what if the rapist prefers to attack women in skirts?

    Oh come on hedge! I've done grappling too so I know where you are coming from. (You should get riled up when somebody challenges your opinion on something.That eliminates the possibility of learning soemthing new or letting the other guy see your point.)The point I tried to make about the UFC's was that Gracie took a long time to win (at least 20 minutes. With Taktarov it ended with a draw way after that). These men exhibited extraordinary conditioning, something we everyday folks do not have.

    This is too much. From what I have experienced, the guard can be a disadvantage as much as an advantage. A very strong assailant put into a guard can lift the one applying the guard and dead lift the latter from the ground. Later, the one who applies the guard can be slammed down. This is a "brute force" solution but it does work (especially on very hard surfaces like concrete).

    Maybe the wrestler whom you made submit was disadvantaged by your knowedge and/or conditioning despite his weight? Rapists also usually have the advantage on both. I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about the guard?! :rolleyes:

    Is the point of this discussion not to get a woman raped? When she pulls the rapist into a guard (whether her choice or not), the other guy is already halfway to the objective. I only say to keep the encounter satnding up so that the woman can run or run for help.

    Of course, and this why woman are advised to keep the attacker away by keeping her legs attacking between her and her attacker. This way she can defend herself while denying the goods to the rapist. BTW, this is also a defense tactic Royce Gracie used a number of times in his career. Are you sure you know grappling better than I do?

    Rapists like to grapple. It's obvious, if they don't how can they achieve their sordid ends. I'm not saying that grappling is useless for anti-rape. What I am saying is that some grappling tactics make the situation worse. You can read it in my post. It's at the first paragraph right after I quoted you.
     
  5. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Underwear or jeans. Whatever. The japanese definetion of "oantsuu"


    Finally, someone who thinks like I do!

    And extraordinar grappling skill something very few people have. Contrast with gracie's fights vs non grapplers.
    Childs play.


    Nothing is perfect. Of course you can open your guard, hook a leg, then go for a leg submission.
    Slamming is a strategy you use vs someone who clings like a limpet.
    Clinging like a limpet is a sign of lack of guard skill.

    Perhaps. It certainly wasn't because of my (nonexistent) extraordinary grappling skill. I'm sure he woulda slammed me if he could.
    It was because he didn't know the guard that I won.

    [Qute]
    Is the point of this discussion not to get a woman raped? When she pulls the rapist into a guard (whether her choice or not), the other guy is already halfway to the objective. I only say to keep the encounter satnding up so that the woman can run or run for help.[/Quote]

    I never said she should pull guard. But Oftentimes she won't have a choice. it's guard or be pinned.


    I'm not sure I know what you mean. Are you talking about playing open guard?

    Grappling happens in rape. It's not like women have much of a choice. If the woman's versed in grappling she can at least creat space to escape.
     
  6. Kenpo Kicker

    Kenpo Kicker New Member

    I'm good at guard and it is hard to do anything from my guard regardless of weight (I'm small) . My mom takes bjj too. I feel it is enough to avoid rape. It is very hard to submit my mother despite her size. I know she will be very good at ground fighting as she learns more. I convinced her to take it becuase I feel it is great self-defense. I also feel more confident in street fights because of knowing bjj. Average man does not have a chance in hell grappling me now (even x wrestlers).
     
  7. Nevada_MO_Guy

    Nevada_MO_Guy Missouri_Karate_Guy

    A defense aimed at the "Conception Vessel 22" point is probably a valid target....whether prone or upright.

    Fingers, knuckles or squeeze in with the thumb...

    If you have keys out and ready....a strike at CV-22 could be fatal to the attacker.

    If you are not familiar with CV-22, it is just above the sternum....that little hole in at the bottom of your neck.....the windpipe.
    Also know as the choke point because a small amount of pressure will cause an involuntary choking reflex.
     
  8. Nukie

    Nukie New Member

    I don't think its a particular martial art thats important but its having the confidence to actually stand up to an attacker without your legs turning to jelly and your body freezing up.

    A lot of attackers aim to do this..they jump out and grab a woman, the woman freezes allowing the attacker to take full advantage. Some women even believe he'll make her life easier if she lets him get on with it. This of course should not be the case as all attackers have different intentions and its impossible to know until after the attack.. which is usually too late.

    So instead, choose a martial art that you feel comfortable doing and after enough training you'll have the confidence to stand up to an attacker and hopefully do enough to prevent the attack.

    I'd say forget your armlocks, chokes and submissions and concentrate on hitting once and running. Knee in the balls, run... break fingers, run.. eye gouge, run.. sweep him off his feet, run.. etc etc.. basically anything to cause enough pain to momentarily stun him, giving yourself ample time to run to safety.


    Oh and you don't want to overdo your attack against him... you don't want to end up doing time just cuz some perv feels the need to share his love ;)
     
  9. Reiki

    Reiki Ki is everything!

    I still maintain that going to ground is the last place a woman would want to be with a rapist, the best thing you can hope to do is learn how to escape from the position as best as possible using whatever force/technique necessary to do so.

    I've had a long discussion with John Will [BJJ Aust] after one of our clinics about women grappling with an attacker and he says it is to be avoided as much as possible. We are weaker than most men size for size, this gives them the advantage, we must look for their weak spots and exploit them where we can.

    I know from my experiences with grappling much larger yet inexperienced blokes that I am at a real disadvantage with strength/size and that I have to try to use technique to overcome them.

    It is bloody hard work and you have to be incredibly quick to be able to do anything before you get nuked. I think with adrenalin and testosterone driving an attacker that it would be even harder to overcome him and that I would really be working hard!

    The important thing I have found while grappling is that you learn not to panic and waste energy by struggling but to look for openings in which you can get some advantage. :woo:

    I have won bouts like this against larger male opponents and although its not the same as being attacked, it makes you appreciate the amount of effort necessary to fight off someone big and determined!

    Run first, fight next, grapple as last resort when the other things have failed....
     
  10. bigd

    bigd New Member

    when i taught women i always said go along with the program let the man think your not gooing to resist or fight him then when he least suspects it poW! knock him if theres something around hit him with it if not do the deadliest mowe you know.for instence wind pipe closing strike vital areas no.1 the groin area ect. do whatever it takes but not right away if yo;u dont have to . make him think hes won when hes lost
    be safe
     
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Groundfighting is very useful - but not on its own. It should be complemented with awareness, avoidance and strikes/attacks to vulnerable areas.

    hedge you are right on the "space and escape" aspect but not on the "go for the eyes won't work" aspect. I am technically from a grappling background (although I dislike distinctions), but I am not blinkered to what it can and cannot achieve.

    You may know a lot about grappling, but I suspect you have no experience with rapes or sexual assaults or their victims. Gouges, bites and scratches are far more effective against dissuading attackers than you believe - I know because I deal with the aftermath. Only last week we had a woman who was being assaulted in the streer. After an initial "freeze" she put the blokes nuts up into his head. This bought her a break and she escaped. To say that "it doesn't work" is blatantly untrue and shows your lack of experience in these things. Dojo practice and MMA are good rehearsals but the reality of violence is never as clinical as some would have you believe.

    But to backtrack a little, exposure to fighting on the ground will improve your chances of surviving an assault, especially if coupled with a more "brutal" compliment - Imagine a "hugging" guard whilst clamping your teeth onto the side of a guys face! That will be far more worrying to your attacker than any number of sweeps!
     
  12. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Way to go, genius. You're gonna get a woman raped.
     
  13. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Wether you think so or not doesn't matter, because as I said earlier, the woman usually won't have a choice. If she's not in grappling range, the woman should be running away.

    It's that simple. She can't match a rapist for striking power, and even if she could, she shouldn't be standing toe to toe with him trying to knock him out or hit his vulnerable areas or whatever.

    When a man grabs her and slams her to the ground, she either knows how to grapple or gets raped.
     
  14. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    More kicky nutsack?

    Are you telling me a hardened ex-con who's already decided to rape a woman is going to be dissuaded by a scratch?

    I can't think of a single time where i've thought "Nah, better not try that. Might get scratched." You seem to be confusing "serial rapist" with "giant human vagina".

    Well lessee...my moms fought off a sexual assault, then attended the IMPACT course twice. I watched both graduations. Like I said, it's crap.

    And MMA is NOT clinical!

    On the contrary, a sweep would be much better, if succesfull, seeing as sweeping over to mount would give the woman an opportunity to get away.

    Let me reiterate: Knowing grappling is going to be the only way a woman can disengage herself from the inherently grappling heavy situation of rape. You cannot out dirty-fight a man who's straddling you and pinning you down. Try to hit his nuts and he'll KO you.

    You MUST know how to grapple to get out of there.
     
  15. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    More BS. What happens in a rape? A man jumps from hiding and GRABS a woman, usually tackling her to the ground.

    Let me reiterate: Most rapes START from grappling. Unlike a fight between two men, where the grappling comes after striking, rape almost always starts from grappling range!

    A woman is usually not going to have the chance to use those techniques!

    Only creating space (gained through, you guessed it, grappling) is going to help a woman get away!
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    hedge..let me put this delicately...you have no idea what you are on about.

    Most rapes do NOT start with a grapple - FACT. They start with a predator and a victim. Circumstances and avoidance are better than learning to fight anyday. Plus rarely will you get a chance to know what hit - most attackers come from behind and ambush you with a blow, or often a weapon. So if you can react with a quick "breakaway" technique and then run so much the better. Trying to grapple a determined rapist will present its own unique problems - difficulty in execution being the foremost. Can you grapple a knife? Could you strike and escape easier? Be honest - the answer is self apparent.

    Where did I say scratch? You are making straw men again - something you have a very bad habit of doing. You don't scratch - you GOUGE. What is it about a gouge you cannot grasp? It would knock the fight right out of you. In grappling terms it is a great equaliser. You (ie. YOU) would not sweep me easily, if at all- I can almost guarantee that. You have less experience in MMA, full contact and MA in general than me, as well as fighting overall (in fact I have been training most of your life). I also outweigh you by about 50lbs. But you might be able to gouge me AND THEN sweep me. The one sets up the other - do you see?

    BJJ (and MMA) is great - I love it! My time training with Jack McVicker is still some of my favourite training ever. But you are too single minded and far too stubborn to see beyond styles and arts. You have your way but cannot accept evidence that does not support your world view. Look outside your box

    And MMA is VERY clinical compared to what I deal with on a weekly basis - and that is fact too.
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Just thought I would repost this as you seem to have completely missed it the first time round
     
  18. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    Very few people? This elitist thinking makes it clear that you are unable to entertain the possibility that a good striker can beat a good grappler. Kimo may not have understood the guard, but he beat the crap out of Gracie (which made him forfeit the comsequent match). The reason why he won the match was not entirely because of his skill, but largely because of the conditioning he had that enabled him to take Kimo's beating.

    The fact that nothing is perfect is why a woman should not go into the guard (half or whole). A person who clings like a limpet while doing the guard does so against a person much stronger and much bigger. So strong that whatever strike, despite the shortened distance, will hurt. Clinging like a limpet is not necessarily a sign of lack of guard skill. It is also a tactic of somebody that currently has severely limited options concerning protection.

    Royce Gracie was also guilty of this kind of tactic in the earlier UFC's.

    Perhaps. But this is also reflective of your advantage over him in skill and in knowledge. Given that women go against sexual offenders who usually weigh more, add to that the fact that women usually have less relative strength (the ratio of maximum force to weight) than men.

    That was the context I got from you from a previous post of yours. If the woman has studied grappling, she should know that the guard is perhaps the most dangerous situation to be in. You can still be pinned while doing the guard. You can also be smothered when doing the guard.

    [QOUTE]I'm not sure I know what you mean. Are you talking about playing open guard?[/QUOTE]

    I forgot the term, but basically here is how it goes. The woman is on her back, the man is standing up. Basically, the woman keeps her feet towards the man at all times, while not letting the man grab her feet. The object here is to keep the man from following in.

    Of course it does. What some people in MA seem to forget is that grappling is VERY possible in the stand-up position. The point here is that when the woman finds herself on the ground, it gets harder for her to stand up and run away. Knowledge of the guard should also take this into account, not give somebody a false sense of security that whenever somebody gets them into that position se could get out whenever she wants to.

    This is what I meant when I said some grappling tactics make it worse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2004
  19. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Yes. That is true. However, if things get physical grappling is a very neccesary skill.

    Well i'm willing to concede that there are sure to be rapists who use a softening blow beforehand. But i've never seen one.

    The only video i've ever seen of an assault on a woman was immediate grappling from the get-go.

    Describe a breakaway technique. Like kneeing the nuts?

    We already know that doesn't stop a grappler. Strong men have proven unable to use these "Breakaway" techniques. A small woman won't be able to do it.

    Probably not. Neither can you strike it.

    Look, if you have space enough to strike, you have space enough to be running the hell on away.

    Right here:
    Gouges, bites and scratches are far more effective against dissuading attackers than you believe

    Me? It hasn't yet. And i've been the recipient of quite a few "gouges".

    I highly doubt I could do that.

    On the contrary, the notion of "style" is an empty concept. There are only good training methods and individuals and bad training methods and individuals.

    I've been a TMAer. I've been a str33t lethal dude. I worked at an MA school (which will remain nameless).

    Compared to what? Compared to a gang shootout sure. Compared to any other kind of MA class, not at all.
     
  20. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Kimo LOST. He tapped out to an armbar, even though outweighed royce signifigantly.

    And so what if royce was tired? Shamrock quit to exhaustion at a later UFC.

    So royce would won that match if he didn't know how to do an armbar?



    Now let's be clear, i'm not saying staying close to the dude is a bad idea. By clinging like a limpet i'm reffering to the habit many newbies have of hanging on for dear life and praying.

    Anyway, what exactly would you suggest a woman who's been pinned to the bed/ground by a violent rapist do? I'm not saying a woman should pull guard from standing, i'm saying once it hits the ground (which it probably will, considering the man's strength) She is going to be on her back. And if you're on your back with a man on top of you, you better be putting him in guard.

    Did I mention that he was stronger and a lot bigger than me? Did I mention that i've duplicated the feat more than once? (ask captshady on bullshido)


    It's POSSIBLE. But it's damned difficult. I for one have never been tapped out when someone's in my guard, nor have I ever managaged to tap someone out from their guard.
    This includes the huge wrestler.

    [QOUTE]I'm not sure I know what you mean. Are you talking about playing open guard?

    I forgot the term, but basically here is how it goes. The woman is on her back, the man is standing up. Basically, the woman keeps her feet towards the man at all times, while not letting the man grab her feet. The object here is to keep the man from following in.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, that's the same as vale tudo open guard.



    Of course. Running should always be the first option. Which is exactly what grappling knowledge enables you to do.

    I don't think any bjj instructor advise jumping up and pulling guard when you're about to be raped. But at the same time, for rape SD it is a neccesary skill.
     

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