Fending off a sexual assault

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by illyria1013, Apr 19, 2004.

  1. illyria1013

    illyria1013 New Member

    I'm currently reading several book on women's self defense. While all of them stressed the importance of initial alertness and avoiding bad situations (ex: pumping gas alone at night, jogging at night with headphones, etc), there are some discrepancies as to how women should react when assaulted.

    Some experts claim that women should fight with all their might to fend off the would-be attacker by hitting, scratching, gouging, and biting.

    On the other hand, there is one author who says that doing so may incite the attacker to do more harm. He may have originally wanted to rape his victim, but now may be more likely to kill her. This female author has a 20-year career in the FBI, so I assume she has the statistics to back up what she says.

    I suppose both views have valid points. But how would one be able to fully distinguish the two possible scenarios? Whether the assailant's goal was to complete the rape and leave? Or if death was the ultimate goal? Would the aggressiveness of the attacker determine what he hoped to accomplish from the attack?
  2. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    We teach women to always go to the face, the nose, eyes, nostrils, jamming your fingers into the ears, the throat. One NEVER EVER lets an attacker get you into a vehicle. Only bad things will happen. Is a broken nose, torn hair, whatever, worth being raped or killed. Most assailants will say they don't want a fight, they want a victim....
  3. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    How would on eknow if after the rape, the assailant decides to kill the victim to prevent any report to the police? Better to just fight than let the ******* have his fun and kill you anyway.
  4. illyria1013

    illyria1013 New Member

    Well according to the text, there's are some rapists who fall under the "power-reassurance" category. These are the ones who often commit the assault without any deaths involved.

    Found a site that elaborates more on the different types of rapists:

    Seems that the anger excitement rapist are the ones most likely to commit the murders.

    Don't get me wrong, I would fight to avoid being victimized, but I can't help but wonder if being violent with an attacker has ever backfired.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2004
  5. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    On the physical side of things: YOU HAVE TO KNOW TO FIGHT ON THE GROUND. Standup grappling is good too. You are not going to be in a slugging match with the guy, he will most likely try to slam you to the ground, climb on top of you and rape you there. Grappling skills are very neccesary there.

    This should be fairly obvious, but just in case you're wondering, almost all rapes are commited from a prone position.

    I think the best way would be being well versed in the "guard" position (found in brazilian jiujitsu and judo) where you are on your back and have either wrapped your legs around your opponents body or are controlling him with your feet. Learning to submit (apply a joint lock or choke) and defend strikes from this position against a fully resisting opponent (preferably a man) is a skill every woman should know.

    Beware of "women's self defense" courses where you're attacked by a man in what looks like a spacesuit. Many of them are utter BS. The man in the suit is scripted to fail. My mother took the IMPACT course twice and I was disgusted by the unrealisticness of their "scenario" training. She does brazilian jiujitsu now and I worry about her a lot less.
  6. Greg-VT

    Greg-VT Peasant

    Hedgehogey The Broken Record.


    On the topic note, I would think the best thing to do is fight with all your might. Try put a hole in his neck... try put a couple. Try knee his balls out through his eye sockets. Try smash his nose through his skull.

    It's either your life or his - whether he was planning on killing you or not. If he succeeds... some victims may think death is an option.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2004
  7. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Put it this way. If a woman fights a guy, about seven or eight times out of ten (at least) the guy will eventually win. Bottom line is if you're female and you're attacked, you have to keep fighting until there's a chance to get away. To only struggle a bit is to invite the guy to keep on attacking, and most likely knock you unconscious before he starts assaulting you.

    Most guys who rape will probably have visualised it many times in advance. They have a good idea of the kind of thing a woman would to, and they'll expect the biting, strike at the groin, scratch, etc. BUT, they'll be working on a mental script, however simple. To keep on fighting after the guy initially attacks (which would probably be a "blitz" attack to overpower quickly) is to put them in a situation they haven't bargained for.
  8. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Hole in his neck? That doesn't make a lot of sense...

    More parts of the myth of women's self defense. A knee to the balls will usually not stop a determined rapist who is much bigger than a woman, nor is it generally possible to do from the ground.
  9. Reiki

    Reiki Ki is everything!

    I think I'd be more inclined to fight back as much as possible to try and escape at the start.

    If it went to the ground I still have a chance of escape as my BJJ style groundfighting skills are good, however having spent a lot of time grappling with men and women, I know that once we hit the dirt things are going to be much harder for me.

    Men are a lot stronger and most of the men I've partnered can physically outgun me strengthwise however I usually have the upper hand when it comes to twisting and torquing joints and wriggling free. I can only hope that my attacker is not a skilled BJJ grappler!

    Whatever the situation you have to fight as hard as you can, even if this means trying to smack his eyes thru the back of his skull.

    As for grappling skills, the best thing a woman can learn is how to escape the guard or mount position with a large and determined attacker. Its not easy.
  10. Greg-VT

    Greg-VT Peasant

    You are being an idiot. I was making a point... those comments were not meant to be taken in a literal sence.
  11. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Sir, do keep the personal attacks to yourself.
  12. Greg-VT

    Greg-VT Peasant

    Sir, that was not a personal attack. And if it were, I would have said:

    "You are an Idiot."
  13. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    I find this amusing. You are right that most rapes do happen from a rone position. However, I disagree that bringing the assailant into the "guard" will help. The assailant wants to be in that position.

    Some true facts about grappling:

    1. It is hard to fend off somebody who is bigger and stronger. If any of you have seen the first UFC's (1-5) you will see that even Royce Gracie had a very hard time with Kimo, Taktarov, and Shamrock (when they had a rematch in a Superfight).

    2. In a position where both are now groundfighting, if the woman is at the bottom, her chances fall dramatically. The rapist has her where he wants her, at the botom where he can use his own weight to subdue resistance.

    This is why, in my opinion, the woman has to keep everything standing up. The assailant may still have the advantage on strength, but stading up, the woman still has the oppurtunity for escape.
  14. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    What I believe VT was getting at (before tempers fray) is as opposed to sitting back and accepting rape or worse, the victim should be doing everything in their power to fight back.

    A nice description I got a while back was called 'The Human Torch'. Imagine your aggressor, has doused you in petrol, and is looking for his lighter.

    Not literally, just take on this survival mentality.

    Of course, you could always allow sexual assault, and just hope they won't kill you afterwards anyway?

    I see no harm in learning ground fighting skills, and this is one of the few areas where the Anti-Grappling ideas have a place IMHO.
  15. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    If it's hard to fend off somebody bigger and stronger than you, then that equally applies to stand-up, as it does to ground.

    In fairness, if you start to look at BJJ/ Groundfighting, as emergency training for difficult situations, as a complement to your striking etc skills, then it has alot of relevance.

    Just because you may wish to keep upright in a violent situation, doesn't mean to say that circumstances won't work against you to put you on the deck.

    Ideally you should always 'try' to retain the upright, but alot of the time it is not possible, you may well fall over or be taken over by bad luck, difficult terrain or by the onslaught itself.

    Therefore having even a passing familiarity with Groundwork is surely a good thing, even if it is just to help to allay a sense of panic, when you find yourself pinned by a generally larger heavier adversary.

    Hence the point about being able to do something, even if that something is either:

    1) To be able to apply a choke, lock or a Leg scissors Squeeze from a prone position as a weakener or

    2) To be able to facilitate a sweep or reversal and escape the situation, by getting up out and away.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2004
  16. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    As does the victim, as long as her pants are still on. That position is an advantage in grappling.

    As a grappler i'd advise you not to tell me what grappling is and is not.

    That being said, with the exception of shamrock (also a skilled grappler, whom he tied with) he defeated all the above mentioned people. And you didn't mention dan severn who outweighed him by something like 60 pounds, yet who he defeated with a triangle choke!

    You know absolutely nothing about intelligent use of the guard. Just today I tapped out a much larger wrestler (he about 200 pounds, I about 145) from the guard.
    The guard is an ADVANTAGE for the person on bottom, in BJJ and vale tudo.

    I wasn't suggesting the woman try to pull guard, i'm saying in most rapes she won't have a choice. It's very hard for two men of equal weight who are prepared beforehand and trying to stay standing up to keep from going to the ground.
    A woman being attacked by surprise is gonna have a much harder time trying to stay standing up.

    Witness the elevator attack video. Almost immediately to the ground.

    Andy: antigrappling is rubbish. It doesn't work for large, trained men (see shotokan vs bjj video, various vale tudo), vs skinny brazilians, it won't work for an untrained woman vs a large man.
  17. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Jeez Hedge, go put your wages in the clue machine!

    Large trained men are unlikely to be raped, untrained women against large men are the opposite end of the scale, let's talk percentile here, cos that's what we're all training for!
  18. Mrs Owt

    Mrs Owt New Member

    I'd like to start by saying my grappling experience is VERY limited. One thing I did learn from grappling with larger, stronger men is that my chances are nil if they truly want to hurt me. In class, during practice I had a chance because my opponent was always trying to pace himself and not expend too much energy because he was working on technique and trying to last two or three minutes - depending on the scenario set up by instructor. The few times I grappled with new, very strong but unskilled guys they just pinned me to the floor and I couldn't move. Granted if I was an expert grappler totally calm and collected I would have a decent chance against a larger guy in a sport setting. In a real life scenario where this guy is out to hurt me I don't know if I could overcome his strength and determination not to mention he would probably give me a few good shots to the head to help lessen my resistance to him. Let me make this very clear - I am not doubting that grappling is very important, even necessary, for self-defence. What I am doing is giving voice to my fears that against a determined opponent who doesn't care if he snaps my arm or breaks my nose or hurts me in any way will my technique prevail over his brute strength. Will my "practice" grappling with a decent guy who doesn't truly want to hurt me be enough to deal with a maniac? Or am I kidding myself with a false sense of security that I can handle it?

    I think I am going to regret getting involved with this one. Folks, go easy! :(
  19. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    You don't seem to be getting my point here. If a large, athletic man can't use it against another man of equal size a nonathletic, small woman probably won't be able to use it on a man of much bigger size.

    Look, a rapist isn't going to be dettered by scratching, nut hitting and biting. He is EXPECTING that. Everybody "knows" that's what women do when attaced. He is prepared for the possibility.

    In fact, tell me how antigrappling would help that woman in the elevator attack video.
  20. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Here's a simple test. Do vale tudo. Ask your partner to attack you as if you were a man.

    Anyay, just being pinned never hurt anybody. Granted it has relevance in rape-sd but without a submission or strikes, what's the point?

    Keep at it. I felt the same way as you, and now I can tap 300 pound newbies.

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