Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Timmy Boy, Jun 13, 2005.

  1. Adam R

    Adam R New Member

    Although the geometry awareness - the sense of 'line' in fencing translates to any linear attack - either open hand, jian or yari (to cross culture) - but - other actual MAs have these in AND martial intent :D
  2. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    erm....sorta right there...sorta.
    An epee is a training weapons for a smallsword, which is a dueling weapon not a battle feild weapon, which didnt come about until sometime in the ealry 18th century, AFTER the musketeers, who used sideswords, which are cut and thrust swords.
  3. Adam R

    Adam R New Member

    Epee for smallsword?

    Nope - epee is a differnt weapon to a smallsword - foil was the training weapon - epee a duelling weapon in it's own right. The modern rules of right of way (or lack of) are a descendant of the uses.
  4. iolair

    iolair Mostly Harmless

    Increasingly, people will take up épée without training foil first (although I've fenced épée 12 years, and did do a year on foil before that). Foil I find frustrating though ... dumb right of way rules and all that target area you can't use, not to mention flick attacks.

    But as a martial art - well, it helps your co-ordination, timing and distance, so it's useful cross training, but very limited as a martial skill in its own right.
  5. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    you might not be aware of the fact that epee translates as sword, it has historically been used to refer to all types ofs swords in italien from two handed to rapiers to cut and thrust side swords and to smalls swords.
  6. Adam R

    Adam R New Member

    Iolair - Yes - I learned epee - from the start, thats all our club did really :D. The frusrtration with foil is that it is at odds with itself, right of way rules exist to prepare you to fight with smallsword, but now it is a competitive sport the rules are used as a guideline on how to win, not develop good technique in a killing/wounding sword style :bang: Flick hits are a fencing thing in general - nice way to land hits on the wrist/forearm in epee too.

    Cudgel: Yes indeed - the Italians refer to the weapon as Spada (sword) rather than epee. I think neat classifications are a modern invention though ;)
  7. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    Ive seen both epee and spada used to refer to swords in italian. CAnt back it up right now beause I dont ahve my books and I never bothered to learn italian.
  8. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Fiore di LIberi operates with spada both for broadsword and longsword
  9. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    It seems that this discussion have landed on defining weastern fencing as in olympic fencing. I read from those that actually do what I call "Olympic fencing" that it's not much of a martial art, so I must thrust ;) them on that.

    BUT Timmy Boy:

    There's MUCH more to weastern fencing than Olympic fencing!!!

    Many of the weastern medieval/renissanse-manuals presents you a system that integrates wresteling with weapons (swords, daggers, etc), and theese systems ARE martial arts.

    So the simplest sollution for you (if you still want to learn weastern fencing and not only olympic fencing) is to seek out a WMA-community that teach from historical manuals (There are several links to online manuals and clubs here on this forum and on www.Swordforum.com ).
  10. ocianain

    ocianain Valued Member

    I envy you guy's for studying fencing, I was always intrigued by it. Far be it from me to disagree (and I'm not going to) but, if Olympic fencing isn't a MA, is it close to one? I mean, if you have so much skill you can lightly touch some one, don't you have enough skill to penetrate on demand? If you're skilled enough to draw first blood and not kill, aren't you skilled enough to kill? Likewise, if you are informed enough to know the shortcomings of foil, don't you know what to train to get around those shortcomings? Good discussion though. My favorite link is http://www.swordhistory.com/
  11. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    those are good point but think about this. you spend so much time training NOT to kill or injure that it is a subconscience part of how you "fight" so even when you need to kill or injure you most likely wont because of all teh reflexes you instilled inyourself not to.
  12. ocianain

    ocianain Valued Member

    cudgel, Point well taken. Always thought fencing was cool though. There's a sport that would seem to be perfect for ESPN (I mean if they can have poker why not fencing).
  13. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    while never haveing seen any sport fencing, on TV or in person, I cant really ahve an opion on it, buti have heard that the reason its not widly televised is becasue teh action is too hard to follow becasue of teh speed and the thinness of the weapons, that and the weird rules.
  14. ocianain

    ocianain Valued Member

    Cudgel, Add some music, colorful outfits and half naked girls (cheerleaders) and how could you go wrong? Guy's fighting with weapons, music and women sounds like it's made for TV!
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    Depends on your defnitition of "Martial Art."

    At the very least, it's a Martially Inspired Sport... Which is darn close to a Martial Art.

    Peace favor your sword,
  16. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    It depends on what you define as a weapon. the tool sused in sport fencing arent relaly weapons IMO,maybe the epee if were unbated.
  17. ocianain

    ocianain Valued Member

    Cudgel, From the outside looking in they look like weapons. I don't know the in's and out's of it like you and others here do. I just think it's cool, fast paced, tension filled, add women and music and I could see little kids wanting to be swordsmen!
  18. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Well, if you try brining them into Canada without declaring them, they'll probably get you for felony weapons smuggling, because they're practice *weapons*. So, by some definitions, they are weapons. They're definitely not swords, though.
  19. AgentEpilot

    AgentEpilot Valued Member

    I have done fencing for 2 years at California Fencing Academy. Fun stuff.
  20. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    I was thinking about the "right of way" rules, and why they would have developed. One possibility would be that they were developed to reduce or eliminate the phenomenon of mutual kills (ai-uchi in Japanese sword arts, I believe). If both duellists were allowed to attack simeltaneously (sp?) there would be an unfortunate number of incidents where both sides were maimed or killed outright. The right of way rulings may have served to prevent or mitigate that undesirable outcome.

    I'm no fencer, so this is just speculation of course.

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