Pat, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth but just jumped the gun a bit based on some comments in your post. Apologies. Sport derivations of martial arts have become rule bound and have moves that have evolved purely for competitive advantage. They obviously have a lineage to MA's but have they evolved to a new species? I originally and unequivocably thought they had. Foil is the weapon I would have the hardest time trying to defend as an MA. Epee, and to a lesser extent sabre, can be regarded as more martial than foil because their target areas are larger and in the case of epee, there are fewer rules. Cudgel, the whole point of FIE fencing is to win fights, end of story. You get no extra points for executing moves better or quicker if they don't land on the target. People have lessons to improve their technique or learn new ones but only in order to help win competitive fights. Even if people don't go to recognised competitions and only train at their club their main method of training (apart from lessons) is fighting with other fencers to 5 or 15 hits. What got me thinking about this originally was linked back to self defence and the meaning of the word 'martial'. I orginally equated virtually all martial arts with some aspect of self defence or practical (i.e. real) fighting whereas FIE fencing makes no official claims whatsoever to be useful in self defence or 'real' fighting. I think a fencer would only realise his or her abilities in a martial sense if they're put in fighting situations other than competitive fights with their normal weapons. Actually the original poster made no distinction as to what type of fencing his cousin did, I just kind of assumed he meant FIE type fencing and went on a roll W
what meant is that in a sporting environment the particapnts will do things to win their match that if it were a real fight would up with them mortally injured. LIke geting your hit in first even if its just a fraction of a second before the other hit your hit counts and theirs doesnt even though in a real fight with real weapons both would be injured.
Ah the old jumping of the gun, remember if you jump the gun there is more chances of you getting:woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: No prob's mate, done it a few times myself regards Pat
OK, brain first then fingers on keyboard next time So if we're all agreed it's a martial art, I'm looking forward to fencing having it's own forum now!!!!!!!! W
well there is a forum for western martial arts already and fencing is a martial art from the western world.........
I'll repeat myself again: Wynnston: I understand your points, it's just like the picture you(?) drew some pages ago with the target circle: Some martial arts are closer to the "martial art-credo" than others. The difference between your conclution and mine, is that I draw the line at the "1", while you IMHO draw the line at the "5". One reason why I include more into the consept martial art than you do is perhaps because in Norway Martial arts is translated as "Kampsport"(Battlesport); The Norwegian language don't differenciate between the sport-side of a martial art and the "martial" one. My point is only that you can draw the line where you want; but if you draw the line at the "5", you must allso say that kendo, karate, judo, FMA-stick-bashing, etc. isn't a martial art either; not only olympic fencing.
No I didn't draw the picture but it's a good idea. You're right, I did draw the line at 5. I've shifted slightly to include FIE fencing as an MA based on posts by you and others but I don't think I'm at 1 yet. Thats the problem when trying to put a continuous variable (1-5) into a discrete category (is it an MA or not). It's also worth remembering that many (most) FIE fencers are fairly ignorant of the sports martial origins as it is not relevant to them on a day to day level. They are also somewhat isolated from the wider MA community so whilst they might be part of martial arts in a philosophical sense they aren't very integrated in a practical sense. W
That's a very good coment, which I can agree with! The few olympic sports fencers and renissanse raipierists I've meat have either been ignorant or looking down on their martial historical background and/or other modern martial arts. I only defend their martialness to prove how inclusive and polite I am :Angel:
The reality is that sport fencers don't need to know their martial background to be effective at what they do but there isn't really an excuse for looking down other modern MA's. Just challenge them to duels or fights, they don't like getting hit very much and they haven't got a clue what grappling is. W
Firstly because it is fun, and sencondly when you have fun you learn more about the real side to MA no matter where it comes from east or west. And thirdly and most importanly to become a MAist you must first have a sence of humour for if you cant laugh at your self then you have no right to laugh at others
