Fencer's off-hand positioning?

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Mitlov, May 22, 2010.

  1. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Question for the people who fence, or have fenced. Like a lot of people who do modern fencing, I tend to keep my off-hand low, palm-down, around where my rear hip is, extending it rearward on a lunge. This picture nicely illustrates both were my off-hand rests when I'm not lunging and when I am.

    [​IMG]

    However, I've noticed that a lot of people who have also trained in classical/historical fencing tend to keep their off-hand up like a scorpion's tail, like this:

    [​IMG]

    Which do you do? And why? If it's the latter, what's the reasoning for that? Body mechanics? Tactics? Pure tradition?
     
  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    It's so you can use the hand to punch, grapple or disarm with it. If you go back alittle futher to 16th and 17th century fencers, you find that some have the hand at the side of the head at eye level.

    The Bear.
     
  3. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Thanks! The punching/grappling/disarming thing totally makes sense if the arm is up and forward, in line with the face or even further forward. On the ARMA link below, I see several techniques using a small shield or a dagger that would be consistent with keeping the hand in that location.

    http://www.thearma.org/essays/BritLegacy.htm

    But what I've seen some fencers do, that prompted this thread, is not at all a hand at the side of the head, or a hand going up and forward. Instead, it's this:

    [​IMG]

    Which definitely is a horrible position to try to throw a punch from, and seems to me would be equally useless for grappling or disarming.
     
  4. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    When I did historical fencing (Cappo Ferro school), the off-hand would be held flat and level with the cheek (if right hand hand held the sword the left hand would be at the left cheek) with the palm facing out. This was used for parrying a lunging sword down, or ready to hold on to it, or deliver a strike if the other guy came into range. Other schools of fencing, I couldn't comment on, but that's what I was taught and how it was explained to me.
     
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    This is an off hand parry pose. Though you would usually have a heavy glove on the hand to protect it.

    Very similar to what hatamoto is describing.

    The Bear.
     
  6. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Thanks, that makes sense.
     
  7. spidersfrommars

    spidersfrommars Valued Member

    When I did historical fencing where hand parries were allowed or one had a dagger in the off hand most people tended to hold their hand farther forward than is shown in that picture more up around the chest area to cover as much of their profile as posable. There are a substantial amount of old fencing manuals from the renaissance that show these sort of tactics at work, very cool stuff if you can find it.

    In more classical fencing like what seems to be shown in that picture (dry but with no use of the off hand for defensive tactics) the hand was usually held up in the 'scorpion tail' pose so it could be sort of whipped down to provide a counter balance as you lunged forward then pulled back up to help keep balance on the recovery. It really does help a bit and it looks snazzy.
     
  8. komuso

    komuso Valued Member

    Hi all,

    soooo, in the arnis I am learning my 'off' hand sits across my chest, or maybe a bit higher and more horizintal sometimes, either with a knife or empty. Does that have a correspondance with historical fencing, or is it a more modern thing? Would be interested in the sword peoples interpretation...

    thanks

    paul
     
  9. komuso

    komuso Valued Member

    sorry, forgot to add, with the idea for the off hand being that it is used to parry, lock, or strike

    paul
     
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    It's historical, you find it in many Elizabethan era manuscripts. Primarily back sword, sidesword and sometimes rapier styles. In Vincentio Saviolo's 1595 manuscript you see this classic Arnis posture depicted in the plates.

    The Bear.
     

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