Fear of getting hurt badly in Kickboxing-is Judo/Wrestling more my style?

Discussion in 'Kickboxing' started by ronki23, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    If I backfist someone in the face and nail him with a bodypunch you think it won't stun them or even K.O them? Kicking someone in the head is also pretty useful or jamming a side kick into their abdomen. You can't argue it builds speed. Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis did it-as did Raymond Daniels and Lyoto Machida. I agree you don't stop once you hit the person but it helps you see where he's coming in from/how fast and you will have better reactions and (if done with oomph) shock them.

    As for the second point in live in a town called Andover in Hampshire,England
  2. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    The big question is what do you want to get out of this?

    As for doing wrestling over the summer, what kind of wrestling is it? There are several different styles of wrestling.

    Judo is only the gentle art if you're the one doing the throw.

    Gracie Jiu Jitsu is very physically intensive also. Rolling can be physically demanding and the smaller man vs the larger man is based on the smaller man be trained and the larger man is untrained. In school you will end up rolling with people who are big and have experience.

    A lot of the people at BJJ schools are training to compete and I would imagine that the people at the wrestling school/camp this summer will be there to improve their competition skills as well also. These are going to be people who will train hard and expect the same from you.
  3. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member


    Will do Judo and Wrestling this summer-only Judo has the competitions but would like to try Wrestling. I will be going back to Ju Jitsu earlier though-maybe April/May

    EDIT: I want to know my skills are working and I can fight under pressure and kick some if need be-whether that be from striking,wrestling or submission
  4. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    The only backfist with power is a spinning backfist - and it's wild and not easily controllable. It's typical of a lot of TMA places I've been to to train their guys in semi contact under the assumption that, when the poo hits the fan, all they have to do is "hit harder". It doesn't work like that. You fight the way you train.

    How far away are you from southampton?
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I agree with this 100% based on my own experiences.

    You have to train to strike through an opponent, otherwise, when you really need it, you might end up pulling your punches unintentionally.

    I would add for the OP that sport karate is fine if that is all you do. Once you move on to something else, like kickboxing, don't train for point karate competition anymore. At some point, as you get older, it will be harder to train for competition and training will be more for other reasons, including training for the "losing is not an option" situations. However, when you are younger, I think get all the competition you can... these experiences will only help you later, IMHO.
  6. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Dude, I'm not sure how old you are but I would like to offer a little advice here. Pick a style and stick with it for a couple of years.

    I wrestled folkstyle (US high school and college style wrestling) which is similar to freestyle. Does this school have a beginners class? I would pick Judo or wrestling and only do that. The rules are different enough that you are going to get yourself confused, especially as a grappling newb.

    As for the wrestling, start a conditioning program right now. Push ups, squats, burpees and running, lots of running. You really need to be in shape for wrestling. Wrestling, especially at the lower levels, is based on conditioning and aggression.

    If you are looking for something more recreational check out your local BJJ or maybe even Judo schools. They are going to be used to dealing with recreational grapplers. I know because I am one. At least here in the states there is no such thing as recreational wrestling.

    Good luck finding what your looking for.
  7. tonyv107

    tonyv107 Valued Member

    Are you trolling now?
  8. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    But it's the quickest punch out there and i'll be hitting the person in the temple with my bare knuckles you know-that's gonna hurt and as I said,it will help me distract them for the shot to the body

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n5v_7ZNgiY"]YouTube - Broken Noses and Knock Outs - Point Fighting[/ame]

    As I also stated, something like this interests me if I can use my point fighting to my advantage and make it more realistic

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvWUC4SKlNg"]YouTube - judo vs karate[/ame]

    I study there but after summer I won't be studying there-Salisbury is nearest-Basingstoke next and Winchester at a push.
  9. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    If someone uses a point sparring backfist on me, the only reason he might beat me is because I can't fight back due to laughter. However, not everyone would react the way I would and then you'd be in trouble...

    http://www.lumpinithaiboxing.co.uk/ Try this place before you leave then. It's a well respected gym that DOES produce good fighters. At least that'll give you something to compare to.
  10. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    You're telling me that the fastest attack AND hit bare knuckle to the side of the face wouldn't hurt you? Speed=power and you're not gonna hold back in real life.

    Will look at the Lumpini though
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    In fighting don't rise to our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. If you are scared of getting hurt in a sport. You're going wet yourself when it's the real thing. If you want to try to overcomes this, then go train in the art that scares you the most.

    The Bear.
  12. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    Thanks for advice

    Have learned a few good things here

    * WAKO Amateur is overrated so do WKA and ISKA alongside
    * WAKO Pro is much better than WAKO Amateur
    * Judo and Wrestling need to be taken alongside Ju Jitsu if competitions in the former are what's required-only X amount overlaps
    *Judo and Wrestling will hurt
    * Knife defence and head movement to avoid flinching and/or tell teammates to do circular attacks if head is turned

    Will return when my kickboxing/karate comps are over and I get into the grappling arts to tell you my progress.
  13. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Yeah, he is telling you that. Do you watch MMA, how many backfists do you see thrown? Every now and then you'll see a spinning backfist but that's it.

    Why? Because they are not effective in real life. You see combat sports where your actually compete like boxing, muay thai, MMA, bjj, judo and wrestling only care about things that actually work.
  14. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Backfists are completely legal in thai boxing and i think most MMA promotions. You will NEVER see someone throw a backfist and the other guy stunned by the power from it unless its a spinning backfist.

    Next time you're at the movies or something and you see one of those machines that measures your punching power, do a full power cross at it, then throw a backfist and compare the numbers. I tihnk you'll get a surprise.
  15. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCjp3NUG2Q&feature=related"]YouTube - The Foot Fist Way Clip Is She Still Alive[/ame]
  16. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    For the record, (and it may be the local and regional reps or something specific to the MMA side of things) but ISKA hasn't been much of an organization for MMA in my area either. They've taken over in Tennessee and things have not run anything resembling professionally since. The shows are always great, but the parts the ISKA touches, from the rep to the rules, has all gone steadily downhill since they got a hand in things. Now being that the rep has pretty much absolute authority on the state in question (or so we've been told) it might just be him, but I personally wouldn't regard it as much at all in the MMA side of things. Their kickboxing rules irritate me but that's because they're strictly western kickboxing rather than any legitimate complaints about how it's been run.
    Absolutely. You can flick it out there but that's about it, really. Everyone wants to equate hitting faster to hitting harder but that's not it. When the hinge is your elbow, the mass being propelled at your opponent is your forearm to your knuckles, and the muscles propelling and providing support and penetration after the impact are very small and isolated. You'd have a hard time finding a worse example of body mechanics.
    Compare that with a jab, where the strike begins at the toes of the rear foot. All the weight from there up and all the muscles along that line from your rear foot to your lead hand are involved. Such a small visual change provides the strike with many times more drive and force without robbing it of any speed. Even with that much improvement, you almost never see anyone genuinely injured by a jab. It's the shots that also involve the torque from spooling up and firing off of a slightly turned torso, like crosses and hooks.
    Regardless, when the first thing on someone's mind is speed, it's usually because they don't have the timing or angling to get there on time, so they have to rush everything. Most people don't even know they're not supposed to be moving like a coke fiend.

    EDIT: For the record, point fighting tends to reward cringing and turning away, as they're not generally striking hard enough to hurt you when you turn away and strikes to the back of the head or body do not score. It also tends to produce fool fighters who (understandably) are not prepared to get hit in the course of a fight, since according to the rules, if they get hit, even by something harmless, it scores. This might be part of your problem.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2011
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I've seen a couple knockouts from spinning backfists.

    Still, the back fist, how it is taught in Tai Chi, I believe ends up being very powerful. I think your experiment with measuring power would show that the back fist can be more powerful than a punch when employed with the structure developed though the internal arts. IME.

    The bare knuckle does make the strike more effective. The problem is not the technique but the training to pull punches for competition. This can cause you to pull punches when under fire in a real situation.

    Yes you might hold back unintentionally based on your training, even if you intend not to hold back. This is not theory, this has actually happened to many martial artists that have trained to pull punches.

    You are right that you don't get much power if the elbow is just a hinge. The elbow has to also move across and then down like a piston for more power.

    The body mechanics is similar to snapping a wet towel. The power is from the sharp triangle formed between the two shoulders and the knuckles on impact. It is a strike that is best when the opponent is squared to you. If the opponent turns more sideways like even a boxing stance, it is hard to use a backfist the head as the shoulder gets in the way. The striking surface is the knuckles followed by the forearm. The knuckles hit the temple followed by the forearm striking through the jawline.

    FYI: For a back knuckle under the armpit, you want the opponent slightly turned and with their elbow up (just to compare it to one for the head).

    What I'm saying is that the backfist/back knuckle/back hand can hit with power given good structure and technique. I look at how it is used in Tai Chi for examples of generating power for that strike. The back hand/knuckle strike in Tai Chi targets the heart, but the power can be adapted to hit other targets.

    The karate back fist used in competition is the equivalent to a jab, including the body mechanics. It hits like a jab. It is much more linear than the backfist taught for self-defense.

    Last edited: Mar 24, 2011
  18. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Sorry, I don't buy it. The body mechanics just don't make sense. There is very little mass behind the shot, there's very little follow through on the shot and it's difficlt to apply.
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Let me do some research and see if I can find a better description of the body mechnics I like.

    Often when I used a back fist to the head, it just bounces off the opponent and really does nothing to them. That's when I started to pay more attention to the different ways the technique can be employed.
  20. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Master Betty, you overlooked this part of the explanation.
    Sounds like you need to work on your chi and springy structure and rooting.

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