Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Andy Murray, Feb 23, 2002.
Interesting statement ... care to elaborate?
Being a smoker, I also think that the cigarette is an excellent weapon and distraction
Tsk, tsk, and I thought you were a serious healthy MA
But yeah I've been stubbed by fags (oops, that should read cigarette for our American friends) and it hurts like hell (and ruins a perfectly good shirt too).
The best part is if faced with multiple attackers, you flick the cigarette into one of their eyes and attack. It definitely takes them by suprise lol
My comment about weapons being overated comes from intent i think and my closemindedness about a "weapon" being something that will be used to try to hurt me a great deal (knife, baton, big stick, glass bottle, etc). I see the point people make of using cigarettes as weapons but they seem to be something else entirely to me - mabye an aid to fighting or indirect weapons.
If you intend to kill/maim/disfigure someone then weapons are probably just the thing but I was thinking in my situation where I go out to clubs alot. If I get into a fight there my intent will not be to kill the person but to stop them from doing anything to me, unless they go for a knife or some broken glass, then they get a broken wrist and elbow.
But there again is intent, of the other person, if they pull a knife then they are either trying to scare you off or cut you. And you also have to look at consequences. If I pull a weapon then i will more than likely do lots of damage to the person and go to jail but if I just slap him a couple of time then put him in a lock then nothing will happen.
Then there is the thing that if someone goes for a weapon then they more than likely will not use it. Most people don't really want to hurt people that badly and the ones that do will hide the knife and stab you in the back.
If someone gets a weapon, unless they are already holding it or have it on their person then there is a fraction of a second where they are intent on getting the weapon and not defending an attack from you, so if you see someone going for a weapon you jump on them and put them on the ground.
For the most part people who grab weapons first won't have much training in them and so the attacks will be sloppy and telegraphed, which makes them easier to block. the majority of people who have had martial arts training will more than likely keep a cool head and not go for a weapon first, unless facing more than one person.
As for the enexpected ones I like my money pouch for work - I am a pizza delivery boy - which is a leather pencil case. When this has some coins in it, it resembles nothing so much as a blackjack, so anyone who tries to steal my money from me on the job will get the money to the temple. I like the ideas of flicking cigarettes at people but I don't smoke and I have been watching the burning cherries since my favorite shirt got a hole burnt in it. The has become one of the things I check when walking through clubs now - if someone I'm walking past has a cigarette.
I fell that in most situations I could do just as well with my hands and feet as with a weapon, just my opinion though.
Whew ... a lot of very valid points, Darzeka.
I think, then, the difference between us is, largely, in your definition of weapon
To me, your money bag is every bit as much a weapon as a knife.
I'm a big fan of improvised weapons ... but training with weapons is useful even for this ... coordination is coordination. Training with weapons can help your empty hands too (and vice versa).
But, given the opportunity, I would *always* grab a weapon for the very simple reason that weapons don't bleed or feel pain ... and can therefore save me some blood or pain.
Your comments about intent are very good. But intent with a weapon can be everything from pain compliance to non-injurious striking to injurious striking to lethal. A weapon can is just as versatile as empty hands ... but it doesn't bleed or feel pain.
If, for instance, a guy takes a swing at me and I slap him in the side of the head with a McDonalds tray (the flat, not the edge), I'm not very likely to inflict serious damage ... but it will definitely ring his bell. Same with my drink ... a paper cup won't do much damage but the soda in his face will be a distraction and the force of the shot (mostly from my hand on the other side of the cup) will ring his bell.
A glass bottle can be used to augment joint locks or to strike non-severe targets (i.e.: stabbing him in the chest with the bottom of the bottle isn't likely to do serious damage ... but it will hurt at least as much as me punching him ... without risking my hand to things like getting cut on his jacket zipper or his necklace).
Flexible weapons such as the clothes that he or I are wearing are almost always available and *incredibly* useful ... but require some training to actually be able to apply.
On the flip side, your comments about people pulling weapons on you are good too. Yes, 9 out of 10 times, if I see the weapon, the guy isn't really intent on injuring/killing me. But ... what about that 10th time? And what about when I don't see the weapon before he attacks ... but something goes awry with the attack and I'm still in the fight ... and I know I'm facing an armed assailant. Maybe his knife hits the wallet in my jacket pocket when he stabs me. Maybe he hits too low and it hits my belt or buckle. Maybe he just misses.
The *only* defense against getting blindsided is awareness ... but *if* a situation arises where a guy is armed and intent on hurting me, my odds are increased a lot if I've trained with and against weapons. And my odds increase even more if I can get my hands on something to use as a weapon.
I do see your points ... and you have several very good ones. But, personally, I think you're overlooking some aspects of weapons training that are valuable.
To me, weapons and empty hands training go hand in hand ... of course, that's probably a bias from my background in Filipino martial arts coming out
This post has just reminded me about how closed my thinking still is - the more we learn the more we know we don't know hehe. Thanks for setting me straight.
I think its mainly because of what I think of about weapons that I don't think of looking for an aid in fighting not made of my body.
I shall try in future to open up my thought process. Damn, and I thought I was already pretty open, oh well.
And on the clothes as weapons, yeah they work. Got choked out with my Gi on Friday night. After a fifteen minute ground wrestling session with a guy who's been training for like 3 years or something ( I've been doing it for 4 months ) I was shattered. Still had great fun though, nearly got Gi choke on him as well LOL. Was a fun introduction to wrestling.
Back to the topic of weapons - I went to a nightclub on Firday night after training and they scanned me with a metal detector then asked to see my keys. We have been having some trouble over here (west OZ) with fighting in pubs and clubs (many gang related) but when he checked my keyring he was obviously looking for a weapon ATTACHED to the chain, not the chain itself - silly bouncer. and I like the idea of the mini mag lite on the end of it - not sure if it will pass "weapon" checks.
Thanks again Pesilat
its good to finally find a forum where people will question a post then discuss differences rather than the "your a stupid fool head for a saying that and your can go and live in your little world without my sage advice" type postings
LOL ... Not a problem. Glad I could help
The people who would say something like you alluded to there, are small-minded and petty ... and their own development will, at some point, be stunted because of it.
I see internet discussion boards like public "think tanks." I know that there's a lot of stuff I don't know ... no one has all the answers. But the great thing about discussion boards like this is that they bring together a bunch of people with a common interest ... so, usually, there's *someone* in the group who has an answer.
If I have an answer for something (or think I have an answer) I contribute it. If someone disagrees then we discuss it and, generally, we *both* come away from the discussion with a new perspective on the subject. It may or may not change either of our minds ... but it will have made us think about it and really analyze it (you have to analyze it in order to discuss it out here where the *only* medium is the written word). By doing this, even if we both just agree to disagree, we each explore our reasons for our opinions which will solidify our opinion and our understanding of it ... while also cluing us into the perspectives of others.
If one side or the other does make a compelling argument that causes the other side to change or modify their way of thinking ... then great.
What I find, though, more often than not, isn't that *other* people change my way of thinking. Rather, through the discussion and analysis of my own opinion, I find the hole in my reasoning.
I see these discussion groups as just an intellectual extension of my physical training.
And, as in the physical training, if everyone isn't cooperative (even in disagreement), then the training is bogged down ... or completely stagnated. That's just a waste of everyone's time and effort.
I'm on *a lot* of discussion groups. This is definitely one of the best when it comes to logical, reasoned discussions with no petty bickering or friction (or at least, none that I've seen yet).
Once again Mike, that is absolutely bang on!
In fact if we ever get Martial Arts Planet T' shirts printed, that should be om the back!
With you permission of course.
Mike will you be my PR manager
Permission granted ... though (if you mean the entire post) that'd be *a lot* of text for the back of a shirt
LOL ... well, actually, you'll be happy to know that this site is listed in the "Recommended Resources" in a martial arts book I've written.
The book is written but I have to take some photos for a couple of the more technical sections. I'm hoping to get that done by the end of June and then I'll start contact publishers.
An excerpt from the book is posted at http://www.guild-hall.com/writings
There are a couple of short stories that I've written (as yet unpublished) there also. Feel free to check it out and provide feedback
When you get your writings published, can you let me know? I would definitely enjoy reading more.
Will do I'm sure that I'll be like a new father when it gets published ... I'll be passing out cigars to strangers and saying, "Look, look ... this is a picture of my book when I got the first copy ... and this is a picture of my book sitting on a shelf ... "
I'm not sure how long it will take to get it published or, even if a publisher is interested immediately, how long the publishing process actully takes (since this is my first foray into the jungle of book publishing).
I am sure that it *will* get published ... hell or high water. Joe Lansdale is my Shen Chuan instructor and kind of my mentor in writing ... he's an award-winning author with a *bunch* of novels and short stories and other things floating around on Amazon.com and in bookstores. Along with his writing, he's been training in MA for 40 years. I gave him a copy of the manuscript on Tuesday night in class. On Wednesday morning at 8:30 AM, he called me. He'd read the book the night before and re-read half of it that morning. In his words: "This is one of the best martial arts books I've read in a long time. You should have no problem getting this published. And if you can't get it published, self-publish it ... it deserves to be published." He was gracious enough to write a foreword for it and I was completely blown away
So, one way or another, it *will* get published ... I just don't know how long it will take to make that a reality
As for my other writings, "One Ting I Know" is currently in a contest. If it wins, I'll get $1200 and, more importantly, it'll get published in a literary magazine ("Glimmer Train"). I'll find out on or around July 1st if it wins.
Aside from that, I'm currently working on another story (which may become a book ... it just keeps getting longer and longer) which has some tie ins to Arthurian legends (though it's a bit of a departure from the classic legends). It's set in modern times and the main character, a former cop, now a bartender and Filipino martial arts instructor, is a descendant of King Arthur and has to fight Medraut who has escaped the magical prison that Myrddin placed him in after the battle of Camlann where Medraut killed Arthur (like I say ... it ties into the legends but is also a departure from them).
You keep writing like that and you'll be ranked with Terry Goodkind and Terry Brooks lol.
I have read some of Joe Lansdale's books and loved them. If he liked it that much then publishing shouldn't be any problem at all (although publishers are as bad as movie critics sometimes). Either way I have a box of cigars ready to light lol.
Wow ... thanks, Rob. Terry Goodkind is one of my favorite authors and Terry Brooks is incredibly good too.
Yeah ... Joe's books aren't for everyone ... they tend to be a bit brutal (for lack of a better word Out of curiosity, what have you read by him?
My favorite stuff by him are the Hap and Leonard books ... especially "Mucho Mojo", "Two Bear Mambo", and "Captains Outrageous" ... but I like all of them that I've read. I also like a lot of his short stories. I loved "Zeppelins West" (an alternative history that brings Buffalo Bill, Annie Oakley, Wild Bill Hickock, Sitting Bull [Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show] together with Frankenstein's monster, Dracula, Captain Nemo ... all together on Dr. Moreau's island [though some of the names have been changed to protect the not-so-innocent
I've liked everything I've read by Joe.
But, I think that, to date, my favorite Lansdale book is "The Bottoms" ... I couldn't put it down and when I finished, I was ticked because, even though the story had been told, I wasn't ready to leave that world and the characters yet.
And, if I didn't make this clear in my previous post (and in case you weren't already aware of it), on top of being a very good writer, Joe is a very good martial artist.
Couple of notes on publishing. Generally after the manuscript is accepted it'll take anything from around eighteen months to two or three years to get published. Whatever you do, do not go to a vanity publisher. That's almost any publisher who requires you to put a contribution towards the costs down, and they'll generally offer what seems like a ridiculous percentage. Hardly any book shops will keep vanity published books in stock.
If you haven't got one already, and you're still looking for publishers, try the Writer's Handbook, it lists loads of them, types of manuscript they publish, submissions they'll accept, and how to submit to them.
Finally, when you do get it published if you go on signings or promotional tours then the most important people to be nice to are the bookshop staff. Buy them drinks, be polite, friendly, and so on. Not many people appreciate how much power we can have over book sales.
Incidentally, any chance that I could get a signed first edition copy?
Doesn't Joe Lansdale have a new book, came out in April? Bad Chili I think its called, might be that its only just been published over here though.
Oh, and see if you can get him to recommend you to his publisher, might be that Orion don't publish that type of book but if they do then a recommendation is always good.
Terry Goodkind is also my favorite author, I have all his work with the exception of the newest book that isn't in paperback yet. I also have all of Terry Brooks' Shannarra series as well as the Landover series. Both excellent authors.
I believe the books I read by Joe Lansdale were Texas Night Riders (which I didn't know was him until recently) and the Borderlands series (if I have the author correct) that a friend of mine had a copy of. I have been looking around here for more by him but noone has anything. Our bookstore is a PITA though because everything I want they have to order. And god forbid you ask for anything that has an Asian name involved, then they really get confused lol.
Mike put me down for a signed first edition aswell, cheers.
Also if you feel like writing more articles for the site please feel free....hint...hint.
Wow. Thanks for the tips I've actually got several publishers already selected (at least for initial contact). I went to Amazon.com and found books in the similar vein of what I've done and looked at the publishers for them. My first three choices are Tuttle, Shambhala, and Via Media because I know they have good reputations in the MA publishing world.
There are a few others that I would try if one of those doesn't pick it up.
Failing that, then I'll pick up the Writer's Handbook and/or Writer's Market. I'm really hoping to get it picked up by one of those first three.
Yes, I'm aware of the vanity publishers and will avoid them. Another that I'll avoid is Paladin Press. While they do publish MA books ... and have published some good ones ... they also publish a lot of other things that are, shall we say, less morally balanced I know a lot of people won't order anything from Paladin because the government (US, anyway) watches the people who purchase from Paladin. Of course, purchasing MA material from them isn't likely to raise any flags (though, since 9/11, purchasing knife vids or books may). Also, Paladin doesn't make their stuff available on Amazon or (I think) bookstores in general. The only place, aside from direct from Paladin, that I've ever seen Paladin materials is at gun & knife shows.
Anyway ... those are the ones I'm going to avoid ... and, like I say, I really hope that one of my first three choices picks it up because I *know* they are respected sources in the MA community.
LOL ... well, that's in my nature anyway so I'm not too worried about it ... but thanks for the heads up ... always appreciated Of course, doing a book signing seems (at this point) a little like a pie in the sky ;-)
Well ... I don't really know. Obviously, my first priority on that is to my close friends and family who will lynch me if they don't get it.
What I *can* promise, though, is that I will gladly sign a copy for anyone who brings me one to sign (I'll likely blush like a virgin after prom while doing so ... but I'll sign it ;-)
Bad Chili isn't his most recent. His most recent (that I'm aware of) is "The Bottoms" (it won the Anthony award last year). His most recent Hap and Leonard book is "Captains Outrageous" (Bad Chili is a Hap and Leonard also).
That's a thought ... but I doubt they publish MA books ... I would imagine that he'd have already mentioned it if he thought they would.
Separate names with a comma.