Favourite TKD pattern.........

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by FireMedic, May 10, 2004.

  1. Another Muay Thai Guy

    Another Muay Thai Guy Valued member

    Deleted - Due to not adding anything structural to the thread :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2006
  2. ZenPixelTKD

    ZenPixelTKD not just a natural blonde

    I am sure you are trying to make a point, but I can't tell what it is!! :D
     
  3. Another Muay Thai Guy

    Another Muay Thai Guy Valued member

    Deleted - Same reason as above
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2006
  4. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    Hey, at least she's being honest! Nothing worse than a long winded post that leaves you wondering what the point was.
     
  5. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    but if you were able to notice the errors, why were you not able to correct them? :D :Angel: :D
     
  6. Deedum

    Deedum Valued Member

    Well i,ve been doing Gae Bek so long for my 2nd dan, and its my favourite
    always looks good when others do it i reckon
     
  7. Another Muay Thai Guy

    Another Muay Thai Guy Valued member

    I was guessing there was going to be errors, and I was correct. Anyhow, deleted now, that was probably the biggest load of twaddle I've ever posted! :eek: :bang:
     
  8. cavallin

    cavallin kickin' kitten

    haha ATKDG this looks intreaguing!
    well ZenPixelTKD, you clearly have your own views, which is fine by me, but i think that martial arts aren't an exact science, and that each one is open to interpretation. i will carry on to "believe" what i do, as it makes perfect sense to me. although calling somebody you have never met before a charlatan i don't really appreciate.
    you make it all sound like some kind of "cult" with 2 seperate kinds of beliefs, which in my opinion is taking things completely out of proportion, which i think you generally did about what i said.
    i am not some kind of person who thinks they have found "the secrets" of TKD at all, but i am simply open to different kinds of thinking.
    i am sorry i told you how to study your TKD, i agree that was uncalled for. however, i do think your thoughts on this are a little extreme.
    clearly you have seen this whole thing exploited before, as seen in the DVD occurence.
    but anyway, i have learnt a lot of useful stuff from this man, he is most certainly not a charlatan... anyway, i'm going to agree to disagree on this one!
     
  9. Gould

    Gould Valued Member

    Zen, I'll have to agree with Cavalin on this one, I understand that your views are different to that of Cavalin's, but having attended several seminars with the same Master that Cavalin referrred he really does help you look at Patterns/Katas in a different light. I'm sorry that you seem to dismiss the theories mentioned so easily.

    There has been alot of books(some good, some bad) on the application of Patterns/Katas not only in Tae Kwon Do but in Karate too, which i fell can be very helpful to any student or Instructor to help expand their own knowledge and training.

    IMO bad training/ideas can be as benifical as good training in that you can define the good from the bad, even if you don't beleive all of the stuff mentioned hopefully there may be areas that you think may help you.

    From a personal point of view IMO there is a lot we can learn from patterns that aren't technically defined as the "correct" application, i.e Low Outer Forearm block. It just adds an extra dimention to my training which i can choose to accept or reject as I feel.

    Just my thoughts.
     
  10. ZenPixelTKD

    ZenPixelTKD not just a natural blonde

    Could you maybe explain to me exactly how this instructor changed the patterns and added different application. For example, Chon Ji, and tell me where all these knees and throws are. What were some of these other applications for a low outer forearm block that you were taught?

    I still believe that when you are changing the movements or applications in the Tuls, as they are set out in the encyclopedia. There is nothing wrong with changing them, as long as you are aware that you are not doing it as it is set out in the book. I do that myself when practising them so that I will know it more completely. i.e. doing it backwards, or with my eyes closed, with just one arm. Is this what you mean? If so, I do apologise, because it would seem that I got the wrong end of the stick and had thought that this instructor (name?) had set out to reinvent the Tuls.

    I look forward to reading your discussion on Chon Ji!
     
  11. HwaRang

    HwaRang Just don't call me flower

    perform middle inner forearm block - see where your arm is.
    think about how you could get it there in a similar way and suddenly its a downward elbow.
    easy way.
     
  12. Gould

    Gould Valued Member

    With regards to Chon-Ji we haven't changed the pattern itself, just the way you look at the techniques used. It does help explain why we have hip twist, reaction force etc other than the usual concepts that are always told.

    Most of the "alternative" applications are simular to Karate Katas,due the simularity of Tuls to Katas.

    The low outer Forearm block could be (it depends on your interpretation of the technique) used as a downwards strike with the blocking arm after you have grabbed your oppenents punch/arm with your reaction hand pulling him towards you ready for your counter attack.

    It has been discussed on several threads already that there are several uses for techniques such as the low Outer forearm block. As with the side kick thread, what I may consider to be the correct way to do a side kick is different to others but that doesn't make you or me wrong we just have different ideas. However it is always useful to know that there are other theories out there for you to look at.

    Answering the original thread question my favourite pattern is Won Hyo. as it flows easily for me and I can generate plently of power. Personally it is always the pattern I like to see at competitions as i feel it looks the best if performed correctly.
     
  13. cavallin

    cavallin kickin' kitten

    its really difficult to explain it on a forum, much easier to show! might make a video!
    but if there was only one application, for example blocking a kick - why then do the hands have to be the way they are? it's because in that position, you can really easily (and it works so perfectly!) make a trap and take the arm down with the block, then, you can step forward and sweep the leg (step and punch)
    anywho thats pretty much what Gould said, and im going off topic, sorry.
     
  14. ZenPixelTKD

    ZenPixelTKD not just a natural blonde

    I can see how it can work... I need to think about this a bit more,
    I will get back to you!
     
  15. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    Zen,

    I read one of your earlier posts in which you said you find it very hard to believe that the General did put in 'secret techniques' and not teach them to his most favoured students. This is sensible. I think you are right.

    The difference between us is that I think it is more likely the Korean Masters were dabbling with something they did not understand when they created all the TKD patterns. This was mainly because the Japanese who had taught them their Karate also did not actually understand what they were doing either.

    The first point to bear in mind is that Tae Kwon-Do grew from Karate. There is very little hard evidence to the contrary - in fact wherever evidence has been presented saying it dates back to the Hwarang (or flying buddhist wrestling donkeys, etc...) the claims are nearly all absurd or so hard to verify they can be doubted very easily.

    Karate, and hence those who formed the basis of Tae Kwon-Do, underwent a very big difference in the way it was taught during the Imperial era of Japan. The drill ground military discipline of the Japanese was carried over into the way Karate was taught. Karate was traditionally taught informally, but then was changed to the military style. In the military style the student obeys the master without question. 'Without' and 'question' are the most important words in the last sentance - the students just imitated the Sensei in the practise of Kata without really thinking about it. As a result people began to lose track of what the techniqes in Kata were for - some of them are very intricate and subtle and can easily be mistaken for 'jump into the air and launch a downward x-block to stop someone picking up a staff'' when in fact a far better explanation is 'hip throw'.

    Therefore its very likely IMO that the founders of Tae Kwon-Do didn't actually know what they were doing when they created the forms. Perhaps they only had forms in Tae Kwon-Do because they were under the impression that they were necessary to have a complete martial art. Unfortunately the only way we could know is to ask them - and I think they are all dead so I would not really expect much of a response.

    Does this mean that the everyone who claims, like myself, callvin, mattsylvester etc... that there is more to forms than meets the eye is wrong? Well, yes and no. Yes in the sense that perhaps the Korean Masters who created the forms never intended that the techniques we 'unlock' in the Tul should have ever been there. However also no in the sense that regardless of what the Korean Masters intended we should still be free to change the interpretations if we think there is a better one.

    Forms are far more geared towards self defense, as they make a basic assumption that the person you are fighting is, though perhaps stronger, less skillful. As a result the moves contained within them tend not to work against other martial artists with comparable levels of skill as they have differing patterns of attack (e.g. the brawler's preference for the haymaker and the boxer's preference for the jab). The Kata, and from the Kata the Tul, are methods of handing down combinations that can be learned in to defend against the thugs, not experianced fighters. Also a lot of the moves are fatal or very damaging - its hardly ever as simple as 'a punch'.

    Hope that helps,
    Alexander

    P.S. One thing to bear in mind is that if you ever get stuck on an interpretation it can help to analyse the older styles of Karate for a better version. A lot of moves that don't make sense in Tae Kwon-Do may well do in Shotokan or Okinawan Karate due to subtle differences in the way each technique is performed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2006
  16. ZenPixelTKD

    ZenPixelTKD not just a natural blonde

    Ok, using steps that are similar to some of the patterns, might make it easier for students to remember the moves in the self defence technique. But you should make the students aware that these weren't the intended moves of the pattern. Nor should you be teaching it to junior students because it would be too confusing to introduce such conflicting ideas.
    I think it is only useful used as a class exercise, not to be used for pattern performance and competition. The steps should be as they are explained in the encyclopedia.
    I had thought that the reasons for hip twist were already pretty clear.

    Its an interesting thought, but not something that I would be teaching to my students, if I was teaching
     
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Excellent post by Alexander. I'm sure many subtleties have been lost over the years through Japanese teachers not understanding what they were being drilled in, and the TKD founders borrowing heavily from Karate and as a result replicating or even compounding that lack of knowledge.

    It makes little difference to competition, sure, but it is well worth exploring these things as they open up new insights into body mechanics and how the art works.

    Mitch
     
  18. cavallin

    cavallin kickin' kitten

    great post Alexander. my BF practises Kissaki Kai Karate, which is not very common, but the guy who teaches is clearly very competent. the fundamental theory in their martial art is about kata application. a lot of people dont understand the full use of Kata and do not find it useful because they havnt been taught how to use it correctly. they teach beginners a pattern, then spend the lesson putting the moves into self defense context, its great! it's what kata/patterns are all about.
    i think this should be taught everywhere, but sadly TKD's syllabus is so jam packed, that even once discovered this it seems too much of a change to include it.
    most of the patterns of TKD are really similar to karate katas, which just shows that their origin is not completely from General Choi Hong Hi, so the encyclopedia is not necessarily gospel (in my opinion of course :) )
     
  19. cavallin

    cavallin kickin' kitten

    http://www.classicaldimension.com/about.htm

    this has some really good information all about Willie Lim and his theories on kata. have a thourough browse of this website very recomended. also a chance to attend seminars!
     
  20. franksv

    franksv Valued Member

    Thought this is worth a mention.I learned the 5 fists from hsing-I after going back to really training my tkd (palgwe patterns) I found 4 of the 5 fists in the patterns.They are not exactly as I learned them in Hsing-I,but they are there.Makes me wonder what other techniques from other styles are in there also.You can really pick the patterns apart and get some really good techniques for self defense,especially if you drill them and use them in sparring.
     

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