Fastest Kicks

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by Master Betty, May 20, 2011.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    A fought a guy with pads on and he tried to get a little extra range on his kicks by hitting with the instep (at least he told me he was trying to get more range when I talked to him after the fight), but during the fight the top of his foot hit my elbow several times due to me moving slightly and taking the kick there. He stopped kicking after a bit and after the fight he was limping and could hardly walk. This is with pads on the feet. It was his first fight and had been training six months, so my advice was don't do that.

    I definitely could see a broken foot with someone kicking harder than that he did.

    As for power, MB, I was trying to state that the striking surface is smaller on the ball of the foot than the shin. This could give it more applied force due to a variant of the law of inverse squares. This is not total force as the Muay Thai kick has much better mechanics for total force. So I was not saying the TKD round kick has more total force.

    So the effective force is the force applied into the target area. For example, I could push a needle into something soft with very little effort (total force applied by me) but the tip of the needle has a very high applied force into the target surface due to it being so much smaller.

    It is kind of like comparing hitting with a bigger stick versus hitting with a smaller stick with a nail sticking out of the end. The bigger stick hits harder but the smaller stick with the nail no doubt has the force to penetrate into the target.
     
  2. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Yes completely true. I understand what you're saying about applied force but the actual impact is far more painful and far more damaging with the thai style kick. Kicking with the instep and modified technique won't result in more pounds of force per square inch than the thai kick - far off it. This principle however, is why a TKD kick is more than capable of knocking someone out - especially when they're a fairy with a complete lack of a guard (but that's a different subject). Besides, you'll notice that most of the tkd guys are either kicking barefoot against the padded body guard or padded foot. There's always padding involved somewhere and most of the time, the olympic TKD guys avoid roundhouse kicks to the head - when they aim for this area it usually seems to be more in the way of axe kicks, reverse kicks etc.
     
  3. Atre

    Atre Valued Member

    No... no it isn't. I can see why you think it is; you get the same answer in both cases, intuitively they feel similar and you are swinging a stiff bar into the target in both cases (sort of).

    But the furthest bit of the bar is moving fastest as you swing. All other things being equal that is the part that hits hardest.

    But all other things are not equal and the reasons to avoid striking with the tip of your foot and the tip of the bat are not the same. Here is the explanation behind a bat http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/baseball.html - Which is as I explained earlier.

    The reason not to kick with your foot is that is floppy, flexible, useless & fragile compared to the shin - energy is lost in the play of your ankle during the strike. If your foot was fused to the tibia it would be a very effective striking surface (the rigid body standing wave argument no longer applies because waves dissipate into the flabby bits of your body rather than the bone).

    So, the analogy can be used - it happens to get the right answer (neither a bat nor a leg works well hitting at the end) but the reasons for those answers are not the same. Put simply, the bat is about elastic response, the leg is about fragility. So it is correct but a dud, sure people can find it useful if they don't think too hard though :).


    PS. That the powering of the kick is biomechanically similar to swinging a bat, sure, but the analogy referring to the mechanics of impact is not physically concordant
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  4. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Betty when we spar I'm going to kick you with my instep and see if you cry or laugh...

    While the other subject was touched upon slightly I also hate people jumping on the mats with hands next to them as they feel they dont need to punch
     
  5. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    TKD guys throw plenty of roundhouse kicks to the head. The preferred KO kick is a spinning hook, because it's so ridiculously powerful and you often don't see it coming--but head-level roundhouses are not uncommon.

    And it's not that there's no guard in Olympic TKD; it's that the guard is a low guard meant to intercept torso-level roundhouses (a primary scoring technique), not face punches (illegal).

    Aaron Cook's KO of Steven Lopez is useful for both of these points. First, the KO is with a head-level roundhouse (part of a double kick, where you throw one roundhouse and then another while in the air, often body-then-head). Second, in the slow-motion, you can see how, in the exchange leading up to the KO, both of them block several body-level kicks with their arms. If their arms were up in a boxing guard, all of these kicks would have landed.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P23xtMVEhGM"]YouTube - ‪Aaron Cook Vs. Steven López (Knockout)‬‏[/ame]

    Edit: Here's another video showing a double kick with the second kick landing to the head, followed by a 360 roundhouse (aka tornado kick) which unfortunately misses the head--almost certainly would have been a knockout. These are common ways of setting up head-level roundhouses in TKD competition:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLl3eekZ_gQ"]YouTube - ‪Double Kick // TaeKwonDo‬‏[/ame]

    By the way, tossing around homophobic slurs ("fairy") in a post about kicking technique doesn't really add anything useful to the discussion.

    Does it also annoy you how wrestlers hunch over, just begging for a knee-strike to the face? Or how football players don't just pick up the ball and carry it slung under their arm? Or how kendoka don't pull out a paintball gun and riddle the other guy with paintball rounds? Or how Greco-Roman wrestlers deliberately lie prone on the ground to avoid a throw, just asking to be stomped in the back of the head? It's a sport. That means it has rules that limit what you do.

    The way taekwondoin fight reflects the best possible adaptation to rules where above-the-waist kicks are basically the only method of attack. If TKD competitors could do better with a Thai stance, they would do so. But people have tried every permutation of stance and guard, and the one that essentially all Olympic taekwondoin use is the one that proved to be the most effective in an above-the-waist-only kicking-only competition.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  6. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Sorry I meant when a TKD fighter carries that fight stance from semi to light and even in full contact, I have seen it happen yes!
     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    In that case I agree. It's a guard that makes perfect sense under that ruleset but not most others.

    Some of the kicking ability can carry over nicely (David Loiseau's TKO of Charles McCarthy with a beautifully-executed spinning back kick is one great example), but anyone who is wanting to use other aspects of Olympic TKD in kickboxing or MMA is obviously going to need to adapt their guard and striking to deliver and protect against punches.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtw1VfdtTes"]YouTube - ‪David ''the crow'' Loiseau‬‏[/ame]
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  8. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Miltov don't worry the same thing annoys the hell out of me no one understands let alone knows how to use a full, half and cross guard efficiently if at all in kickboxing
     
  9. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    That's a concern as I've seen first hand what happens when you use an arm to defend against a Thai style kick. It's not pretty. So if WTF'rs arent breaking arms on a regular basis then they're just not kicking hard enough just scoring points
     
  10. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    what weight are you the now? :)
     
  11. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Only lost 3Kg of my 22kg target, why what weight are you?

    Sounds like your backing out now lol
     
  12. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    actually those videos prove exactly my point - you rarely see roundhouses from TKD guys without there being some form of padding between the foot and the impact point - in this case the headguard.

    I am aware that TKD guys use this guard because it works for their crappy ruleset. What I also see, as doug points out, is loads of TKD guys who think they can proper fight and use the same guard. If those were thai style roundhouses you most certainly would not block them for long with your arms.

    P.s. "fairy" is only a homophobic slur if it's intended as a homophobic slur. Indeed the word "fairy" has other implications depending on it's use. On another point, since I've known my brother was gay since he was about 12 and been completely fine with it, I don't think that anything I say could really be described as "homophobic". Indeed I have a few good friends who're gay and as long as they're not trying to stick their schlong in my crack it's got nothing to do with me.
     
  13. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Lol I'm not backing out at all - I really hope they organise a MAP meet later in this year. We can run a "challenge master betty for saying your art's crap" event. But if you're 90kg or above you could hit me with your big toe and I'd cry lol.
     
  14. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Have you seen my toes? You might want to rethink that lol

    Since I been back posting you've not slurred kickboxing to my knowledge so ill ease up on you if thats what your asking ;)
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    So...you can fight...but can you "proper fight"?
    Brilliant. I'm gonna use that from now on.

    I tell you MB...you may rub people the wrong way but you're certainly good value for money. :)
     
  16. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4fwpm1G_fE&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪round house kick to face‬‏[/ame]

    Better example of the tornado kick that you posted above Miltov
     
  17. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Master Betty vs TKD

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C02T6vigwiY"]YouTube - ‪Suprise attack‬‏[/ame]
     
  18. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    lol why what's up with your toes? Nah at the end of the day, much as I personally don't like a lot of things about kickboxing I have complete and full respect for those guys as well as knowing full well that it works both in and out of the ring.
     
  19. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

  20. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    This one might be better Moi, first few seconds you can see his baseball bat analogy at work when compared to a muay thai kick

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_5rJF-IRyw&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Combat Tournament created by Ongokiller50‬‏[/ame]
     

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