FAQ - What is a McDojo and How Do I Spot One?

great posts some really good advice..

 

Really great OP..

This is how it is in our club.

In our club thers is no any contractions. I don't see any sense in it. Students train as long as they want to and during that time they must pay monthly fee. We tollerate 10-15 days late with fee and if somebody is in bad financial situation he can train but help cleaning the dojo etc. We are really friendly and tu numerous of students we helped financialy at going to tournaments, buying kimono etc..

Grades are about 80% at time - means six months in all belts till red, year in a red belt. Rest 20% goes 10% to those who don't manage to pass testing (they then have chance for a month) and last 10% going to those talented and enthusiastic practicioners which are being promoted. However we eventually promote from yellow to green belt or from green to blue belt. There is no promotion to red or black belt.

Grades cost as is determined by our home federation. We take really small ammount of money for testing. If grade is 20$ we will make it 30$ for example.

We don't force practiocioners to buy equipment from us. Infact we don't sell it either. But it is required to have proper equipment.

Cross training is allowed. But under conditions: dojo is opened five times a week. Number of tranings must be at least 15 monthly and we ask for hard trainings - so our students must understand training in other places won't be acceptable as justification for not following that rules.

Behing good trainings we look and work for good atmosphere in club. There is no place for anyone to feel bad about going to training in any manner. Bullys of any kind are cutted of if they don't change.

I created some of this rules as becomed main assistent / coach in the club. I don't consider our club as mcdojo in any way, but as always there is room for progress..

Greetings

 

I am very wary of places whose instructors make grandiose claims of rank. If the web site claims their instructor is an eighth-, ninth-, or tenth-dan, approach with extreme caution. Put the organization that rank supposedly comes from in Google and see what comes up. 90% of the time, the first result is going to be the web site you just left.

Most reputable martial arts organizations have only a handful of masters at this level worldwide, and most of them have better things to do (like teaching seminars) than teach your ten-year-old to punch the air every Saturday morning.

 

After attending two amazing Aikido dojos, with great Senseis both personally and technically, I stumbled into something fishy. After reading this amazing thread I think I found a McDojo and these are the reasons why I felt that way:

1-> Felt rushed. There was no warm up, only a couple minutes of Ukemi and they were right into the techniques. Considering the aggresive wrist lock they started with, it looked dangerous to me.

2-> This may simply be a misunderstanding on the principles of Aikido by my part, but at the former two traiditional dojos I went to, the Hakama was treated as the one and only "grading" symbol. It was allowed to wear once you earned it, which happened loosely when the Sensei decided, and came as a gift by him. In this dojo everyone was wearing a Hakama, even the clear beginners.

3-> Absolutely unnecessary martial attitude. The sensei would scream loud japanese orders, which is something I haven't seen in Aikido before. Also, too much emphasis on the technique and none on breathing (didn't hear the word "breath" for the whole class, which yet again might be that I'm used to a very particular style of Aikido, but I always assumed breathing correctly is the key to this art).

4-> Again, felt rushed in the end. I think this is a great indicator. The exact minute the class was over, he quickly gathered everyone and left. This may be me but I always felt that in every discipline in the world, a good teacher is the one that likes to stick around for a while answering his students' questions. Being the first to leave your class is not a sign of a good master I think.

 

No warm-ups and straight into wrist locks is bad news. Very dangerous.

I don't know what you mean by "traditional", but even O Sensei himself awarded dans and black belts to go with them. The vast majority of aikido has at least that. My club is a member of ASU (second-largest aikido organization in USA, Hombu affiliated), and we're all allowed to wear hakama so long as we have any rank at all.

Breathing correctly is a key principle of aikido, but some teachers like to let students discover principles in technique rather than teaching principles themselves. Either way, the shouting in Japanese and being overly serious is probably bad news in aikido. This likely means we have a Seagal wannabe who thinks he's going to go out into the street and get armed thugs to grab his wrist.

A better indicator than the teacher, I think, is the students. Do they hang around and talk, or do they all pack up and leave right away? Camaraderie is key to a good martial arts club; without it, you might as well just be going to a gym.

 

Playing devil's advocate here, but you MAY have found a school that teaches a Pre-WW2 style of Aikido.

As was explained to me by a practitioner I was acquainted with via the internet, Pre-WW2 Aikido had much more emphasis on combat and technique and less emphasis on the softer side (dont read that as "weak" or "less worthy" in any way) of Aikido. Here is a link that might provide some details. Its a bit long of a read, but if you're seriously considering that Aikido school then this might help: http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=324

I dont know one way or another about the hakama. Maybe thats just how the owner of this school likes it. And I agree with you about the stretching before wrist locks; although, perhaps this instructor expects students to have limbered up before class.

Does the school have a website? I'd be interested in looking them up.

 

I think what you've experienced before you found this club is the newer more pleasant way of teaching and studying martial arts. Which makes something more akin to the old way all the more shocking.

There really isn't any such thing as "traditional" Aikido. O Sensei's students were pealing off and doing their own thing well before Aikido was called Aikido. It may surprise you to learn the term "Aikido" was only adopted around 1942. Aikido is a very new art in the grand scheme of things.

The fact there was no real warm up or no hanging around afterwards doesn't mark the club out as a McDojo nor does the fact the techniques may have been a bit rough. Martial arts hurts. It's a fact of life.

There's also no hard and fast rule about the wearing of Hakama. Some organisations have them. A few don't. Some insist all students, even juniors wear one. Others insist you earn the right. Most will allow women to wear a hakama from day one. To preserve their "modesty". So far as I know O Sensei insisted all of his students wear hakama. He considered your gi trousers to be "underwear".

In fact where Aikido is concerned I'd be more wary of the nicer gentler clubs that don't give you a hard time.

Do you have web links for the clubs you visited?

 

Interesting points of view, thanks everyone for your input on this.

I hadn't thought of the possibility of pre-WW2 Aikido. Classifying this place as a McDojo without much experience on the subject was a little pretentious.

That said, several little details made it feel wrong to me. I can't really put my finger on it. It was just an atmosphere of disrespect, I could feel it. While this is a big deal for me I understand it could be perfectly fine for someone else.

They don't really have a website, as it's not a dojo per se, but rather weekly lessons in a massive gym (in fact they were imparted in a basketball court).

 

While the class is running it's a dojo. Most martial arts clubs train in similar accommodations.

Is it possible you're misinterpreting a strictly no nonsense approach to martial arts as disrespectful? From your description I'm getting the impression you've experienced the sort of club that is sadly a rarity in Aikido. A club that seriously focuses on actual martial arts and hard training.

Clubs that are in fact businesses are nice to people because they want you to come back time and again. So a teacher in that setting will hang around. Whereas if the teacher teaches purely because they love their art and wish to train. Then he or she likely couldn't care less if you like them or not. That's not what's important to them. What is important is you don't waste their time. If you wish to train with them you will be welcome. But they won't spoon feed you or mollycoddle you through the learning process. And it'll likely be a steep learning curve with few if any detailed explanations.

Where was this club?

 

Well to be technical I suppose it'd actually be a keiko-jo rather than a Dojo.

Dojo tends to carry with it certain significance and connotations.

 

In my ongoing club that I have been training at for 24 years you are given the opportunity to pay monthly or per lesson. I go to other clubs as well as I like to train with different people in different disciplines. I understand the need for some clubs to do a monthly subscription but at the same time they should also offer lesson by lesson prices for people that train in different places, improving there skill. All the clubs I train at allow me to pay by the lesson (Kickboxing, Taekwondoe, Judo, Karate). I have been in clubs which refuse this and will not allow it. To turn someone away that has over 20years experience, that could share what they know. To me these are the McDojo's all about money and not about respect for other martial artists.

 

I may be alone in this, but I'm of the opinion you should be doing your own warm up. Personally I always turn up 15 minutes early to a session and warm up myself. I hate warming up cutting into my learning time (especially if you only have an hour).

If you're new then someone should guide you on how to warm up properly however.

 

I'm concerned I'm in a McDojo. I need to give some background first so bear with me.

I was in TKD from ages 9-11 and received my black belt. I'm 100% positive this was a McDojo because every 2 months, they pretty much promoted anyone who paid money to test. As a kid who actually cared about putting in effort, it bothered me, and I got disillusioned and quit. A year later I found out that the Master had committed statutory rape against a student while I had been attending class there (consensual, but she was like 15 or so, he was married, had a kid, etc), so you have to understand that I'm coming from a very mistrusting place.

I've always wanted to go back, though, since I enjoyed it and it was a good workout. So a couple of months ago (I am now 24 to put this in perspective) I started looking for a new dojang. There are few in my area. One was in a very bad part of town so I marked that off (as a short, thin female I don't really want to be putting myself in danger to learn self-defense, as that's a bit counter-productive!). I tried to call another one several times and no one answered and their voice mail was full. I did go to another one, and had an extensive talk with the Master there.

This school is, apparently, associated with Kukkiwon, which I'd never heard of before. He explained it to me and said that my belt is not a Kukkiwon belt so I will need to retest for black belt to ensure that I meet the standards for his school. I didn't have an issue with this since I came in with no expectations, and almost thought I'd need to start at white. I had two options: I could relearn everything from white up and then test for black, or I could just learn what I needed to know for the Kukkiwon test. I thought it over for a good week and decided to start learning from white. I felt most comfortable with this option. He said I could wear my black belt but I'd need to pay a testing fee each time I learned the requirements for a belt ($55). I didn't really have an issue since, as I said, I had thought I'd need to start at white anyway, and it was me who chose this option to begin with.

Since then I have noticed things that are suspicious. For one, there are mostly kids in the class. There are many kids with black belts. The youngest is 6 and it's his own kid. His other kid is a 2nd degree and I'd guess he's 9 or 10. There are a couple other kids (under 16) with 2nd degree black belts. I don't know if he does the testing for these belts himself of if there's some kind of official Kukkiwon people who come out...? Anyway, I would say I'm one of the few who are over 16, at least that come during the "All belts + Adults" classes (though there are some that come during family classes).

Also, the belt system. In my last school, there were 12 belts. Here, I would say there are probably 15, and between 1st and 2nd degree, there are also a number (black with white stripe, black with yellow, etc). Is this typical? I've never heard of anything like it. The Master told me people typically reach black belt in 3 years, but for me it was different. I asked him how long it would take for me to earn the Kukkiwon belt and he said he could guarantee 1 year if I signed up for unlimited classes and/or took private lessons, but he couldn't guarantee that if I did the option for only 2 classes a week. These are 6 month contracts, by the way. I didn't want to commit to that much right away because I work full-time and have other obligations so I chose the 2 class/week route. I am testing out of my "belts" at a rate of about 1 a month so far. Granted I practice a lot at home and am a very fast learner, but I know that it's in his best interest to test me faster and get that extra $55/month. Yes, he does correct me on many things and he pushes me.

So I'm stuck. There don't seem to be any other TKD schools in the area that are good options but I'm losing my trust in this one. And like I said, I'm coming from a place of mistrust to begin with. I would have been more suspicious to begin and did more research/though, but it seemed to be my only option and I was so excited to get back into TKD. The more I learn about McDojos and how training is supposed to be, the more I feel like I ought to just give up on TKD altogether.

I'd just like some thoughts on my experience and ideas for where to go from here. The Master is very kind and does give me one-on-one attention during and sometimes after class. I'm really torn. Sorry for the wall of text but there is a lot to this story.

 

I wrote a reply but clipped the back button on my tablet and lost it :bang: so I'll try again..

I'm pretty sure Kukkiwon is the governing body of WTF (I think ITF is different but I could be wrong) being able to go from white belt to black belt in a year is a little concerning though, I assume the Kukkiwon patterns would be different to the ones you've learnt and seeing as you were unaware of Kukkiwon I assume you'd have to learn all the patterns from scratch? That alone leads me down the path of the club being a McDojo especially when there's ~ 15 belts in your club to go through first and the patterns aren't always easy. The fact they have 6 year old black belts doesn't help my assumption, the club I'm at doesn't start training kids until they're 5 or 6 years old let alone have BB's that young and we only have 10 colour belt rankings before getting to 1st dan, although different clubs here have different ranking syllabus so I'm unsure if 15 is an unusually high number of belts to go through.

I'd say the instructor does the grading stuff himself, at least that's what mine does, and it would also explain how his kid got to be a black belt so fast, the black with white stripe, yellow stripe etc is new to me too (maybe we just don't do it in Australia), our black belts only have thin white stripes on them to represent what Dan the person is, if it was me I'd look at checking out a few other clubs to find a better one but seeing as you're pretty much out of other options it's a tough choice.

 

IDK if it's a Mcdojo, three years sounds about right for attaining a BB in TKD. It's been 13 yrs since you trained TKD and it wasn't KKW certified so if I were your new instructor I would probably have let you start a white belt, but I don't see a real red flag for letting you keep your BB and train with it.

I would be interested in the future of how that's going to work when you qualify for the KKW BB how's the fee and documentation going to be handled, that's why I would've had you start over.

The frequency of your promotion may be due to your familiarity with the techniques as you have some experience and retain the knowledge from your previous training. $55 dollars for each test under BB is a little steep, but not overly above average, I think it's more the burden of it being so frequent, I would maybe talk to your instructor about perhaps a bi-monthly testing schedule.

I would also caution you on the private lessons after class, as you may not know the instructor well enough, not my place to say anything, but if you were my daughter I would have this discussion with her.

If you feel the instruction is of quality, give it a little while and see how it goes. If you've got a gut feeling that doesn't seem right then move on.

Good Luck

 

I used to be a student at a Fang Shen Do kung-fu school. At first I thought it was great but the more I went there the more I realized something shady was going on. The classes were very expansive but at that time I didnt care since I had just gotten back from Afghanistan. I was being asked if I was interested to have my own school after two months. My instructor was pretty ****ed off when I told him I wasnt.

I left after an instructor asked me after the class if I knew about "the secret" and "the law of attraction". It turned out that all the FSD instructors were part of a group called GIN which stands for Global Information Network (check this link, page 11 )

You can read more about FSD here, I post under scorpion_wins

 

Sadly most of what you describe is pretty standard fair for TKD in my experience. Not that I have a huge amount of experience of TKD. Just friends who attended. Their stories are all very similar.

The fact that the teacher has taken your previous experience into account doesn't raise any red flags. The fact that he's still charging you test fees even though you don't seem to be grading seems very odd. It's not something I would be happy to pay. If I were starting at the beginning I would expect to learn and test the same way every other student does.

What does concern me though is the fact a 6 year old can achieve black belt. I find it very odd that an 11 year old could achieve black belt.

I think it might be better in your case if you start fresh with a completely different style. You're obviously carrying a lot of baggage around with you that's always going to be playing on your mind while you study TKD.

 

Yeah this is kind of what I feared. It's worth mentioning, I guess, that the school hasn't been open long (<5 years), so I wonder if he rocketed some people up to black so people didn't walk in and see no one wearing black belts? That's the one thought that I have for why there could be so many kids with black belts. The extra money to test is not an issue for me right now but I just want to be sure I'm testing when I'm ready. And, I do feel ready. I'm tested on a few things: kicking (usually about 3 different kicks), breaking, a form, and what was called "sookis" (unsure of spelling) at my last school. But then, I don't really know how good I'm supposed to be at these things since most people I have around me to compare myself to are kids, and I don't think they expect perfection from them.

I began to grow suspicious when I realized that his youngest (the 1st degree) can barely do a roundhouse kick without falling over. As a kid this would have ****ed me off tremendously, but as an adult it just makes me suspect that there's a lot of pressure on his kids to participate and someday take over the dojang. I've just noticed that a lot of what seems to be his family (immediate and extended) participates.

When I asked how long it would take me to reach black belt, I could tell he thought it mattered to me how long it took. He literally seemed like he was telling me something he didn't want to (that I could do it in a year). It was very strange. It really doesn't matter to me how long it takes. I just enjoy doing it and I'm not in some kind of competition to get there as fast as possible.

Anyway, here are my other options after doing an expanding my search to places up to 30 minutes away (which is the max I want to do since I often stay late at work and don't want to push my ability to be on time):

1) Place that didn't answer their phone and I suspect may be affiliated with the first McDojo I went to. They also have limited adult class options.
2) School that doesn't look like it's associated with WTF or KKW (not sure how important this really is but it seems to be). Has a program for kids 3-4 (most schools here seem to have this though). Has a million belts in the system. Here's the list which is almost exactly like the dojang I'm at, minus the million belts between 1st and 2nd dan:

White belt
Yellow
Orange and Orange senior (guess this is orange with black)
Green and Green senior
Blue and Blue senior
Purple and Purple senior
Brown and Brown senior
Red and Red senior
Red/Black
Black​

3) One that's also farther away (30 min) but has more adult class options. Doesn't look like they are associated with WTF or KKW. And from the pictures, it looks teeny tiny and there are kids with black belts.
4) One that isn't KKW/WTF, less belts though. Only family classes, no adult classes. Looks like they don't start classes until age 6. Not really much info otherwise.
5) One that is somewhat inflexible for me since there are only 3 adult classes each week (there are others, but they're at a time where it would be extremely tight or impossible for me).
6) One with more adult classes per week, but again, some of them would be really pushing it. Also, just seems fishy based on the website, though nothing I can place.
7) School that mentions a philosophy "based on Christian teachings" which is a huge turn off for me (I'm not Christian nor do I understand why anyone's religion is important in this situation). However, they seem to have stringent requirements for each test including Judo throws and terminology. Allows black belts for kids.

That's it. So if one of these sounds like a better option then where I am, let me know... Nothing seems extremely promising but maybe I will check out a few when my contract is ready to expire (May).

 

Odd, I posted a very long reply but it said my poll needed to be approved by a mod before it would post. Huh? I didn't post a poll... Can a mod please check to see if my post is in limbo though? lol