FAQ - What is a McDojo and How Do I Spot One?

Thank you!

Also, aikiwolfie, I've definitely considered starting with a new discipline but I picked TKD for two reasons. I have a strange loyalty to it, like I do a lot of things. Guess that's just my nature. And also, I feel like going somewhere else and replacing the black belt I earned at that sham of a school would be like completing my healing journey. Maybe that sounds silly, but when you're 12 and you learn that the man you had respected, idolized, and trusted completely for 2 years went and used his position of power to coerce a minor to have sex with him, well, that tends to do a lot to your psyche. And yeah, I still carry a lot of that around, you're right.

 

I train at a KKW school/dojang, and my understanding is that kids under a certain age (I think it is 13, or maybe 16, I can't remember) can earn a poomsae (pattern) black belt, but not a "proper" or dan black belt.

Have a look at the KKW rules about promotion at http://kukkiwon.or.kr/main.action?method=mainPage&mode=eng

To earn a bb at my school, you have to advance through 10 belt levels, finally ending at black. Different places uses different colouring schemes, so the intermediate colours don't really matter. If you train hard, practice on your own time, you could theoretically earn a bb in about 3 years, although the vast majority of people take longer.

 

Hey all!

I recently stumbled upon this forum, and you all seem very knowledgeable. I recently began attending a kung fu school, which I fear is a McDojo. Now, I know that running a martial arts school is very expensive, so I understand that some McDojo qualities may be inevitable. Perhaps you all can help me. Here are a few of the things I've seen that bother me:

1) Some of the black belts are overweight. The classes are segregated according to level (beginner, intermediate, and black belt), with very little overlap. I happened to get to the school the other day and watched a bit of the black belt class. A few of the black belts seemed to have huge guts, which surprised me. From what I understand, the black belt test is 4 hours long and is very difficult. It seems to take between 3 and 4 years to earn a black belt in the school.

2) There is an inner circle of students (of around 20 or so students) who receive special instruction from the sifu. This one bugs me the most. When I first learned of this, I felt that the school was withholding instruction from the rest of the students so that they could charge more. The special team is really the only group that receives direct instruction from sifu; he never really participates in the other classes. This class learns wing chun and other styles that aren't offered to the other students in the school.

What bothers me most of this inner circle is its price: it's a $595 downpayment followed by $250 a month for a 12 month contract. It includes a lot: tai chi, kickboxing, weapons, seminars, and kung fu. They usually invite white belts who show some level of athleticism. I was invited to join in my second week. At first, I was eager to join, but then had second thoughts once the sifu began to roll over my current basic contract into the special team contract.

3) Students seem to progress without real testing. I'm going for my first belt "test" soon, but there doesn't seem to be an actual testing date. Rather, I paid my $50 fee, and then was told that the test would involve my instructor calling out certain moves during a regular class. Testing seems to be based on the number of classes taken (recording on a card you hand in at the beginning of class), though they say it's also based on ability level.

I'm not sure if the other belt levels are like this. I could be totally wrong about the belt test as well, as I haven't taken it yet. This is based on what I was told.

4) The classes tend to be the same. The classes all follow the same routine: 3 sets of 30 jumping jacks, 10 pushups, and 30 seconds of crunches or bicycles, along with blocks and punches and self-defense techniques in the last half hour. The self-defense moves have been the same for the past few months (they all come from Longfist 1, which apparently is one of the forms they teach in the intermediate class).

The instructors do seem to be very skilled. The instructor for the basic class has been doing kung fu for the past 13 years or so. From what I've been told, the sifu is a world champion and an inductee in the United International Kung Fu Hall of Fame. He also has a ton of books out and has been on TV. He seems to really know what he's doing.

Any thoughts?

 

A couple of things.

First, it is not abnormal for a teacher to only teach a select group of people, while the rest gets taught by assistant teachers. It used to be like this in larger Japanese systems as well. There are only so many hours in the day, and it is generally a better use of the headmasters' time to teach the stuff that only he can teach, whereas any of the assistant teachers can teach a beginner.

I am an assistant teacher. The normal case is for my sensei to teach the entire class. however, if he is absent due to his job, I teach class. For any white belt or someone in the first few kyu levels, it really makes no difference at all who does the teaching. In fact, When I first joined, the sensei had the same level as I do now.

Overweight black belts, now there is something that depends on whether they can fight and have stamina. There are plenty of overweight people who are very strong, skilled, and with a lot of stamina.

Testing is different in different systems. We have formal exams, but you don't get to take them until the sensei says you are good to go. In other words, it is extremely rare for someone to fail a test. The difference is that some people test after half a year in a certain grade, while others take a year and a half to get there. Other organizations just give you a belt when the teacher judges that you are ready. There is no standard way of promoting.

As for repetitive training: a couple of months is nothing. If I teach class, pretty much every class is very similar to the previous one unless I happen to be in mood to do something out of the ordinary. Warmup is short and basic. You can do strength and cardio training in your own time. Then we practice basic rolls and evasion, and then basic attack block patterns. Those always consist of the same components, and we do them always. Only at the end of the class do we make time for grade specific teaching.

Doing the same patterns months at a time is not necessarily out of the ordinary. In fact, I would say it is the reverse. Because it means they don't lure people in with a lot of variation without taking the time for people to learn proper basics.

All in all, I don't see anything that would swing my opinion one way or the other. Yes it is quite expensive, but that may be because the guy has to earn his living and pay the rent.

It could be either way.

 

Kung Fu Newb,

I'm going to disagree, respectfully, with Count Duckula on a few points. The main one is that unless this guy is REALLY REALLY famous, I can't see any justification for the extremely high prices.

It is not unusual for Chinese martial art systems that use a ranking system not to have formal tests. I've seen this in Okinawan styles, too. $50 is a bit much for it in my opinion since he's not taking special time to test you. In my preying mantis school (long time ago, studied for about 8 years) we didn't have coloured sashes but we had level numbers, with the lower numbers being the higher ranks. Level 6,5,4... etc were sifus. I made it to 7.

In my Wing Chun school we only seem to have a formal test for black sash. Everything else is when the sifu feels you've proven yourself to the point where you warrant the next rank, and you just need to obtain a sash. You can buy it yourself or he'll order one for you. I've checked online and what he charges is the same as if I bought it online and had it shipped to my house.

I don't know, but without knowing who the main sifu is, it's hard not to say that you're being taken for a ride.

 

The pricing is something I can't really judge. I know that some schools are really expensive. Especially in the US. I've never known a MA school where the teacher had to make a living. All clubs I've been in were something like 100 to 200 dollars per year.

It also depends on what you get for that money. If you can train every day of the week / throughout the day, and you have the opportunity to do so, then the amount could be worth it.

But even if it is overpriced, that does not mean it is a McDojo. It may just be a very expensive one.

 

Unless I've missed something there's nothing here that screams McDojo.

 

I forgot to note my current package. My current contract (the basic package) was a $199 payment upfront followed by payments of $99 for 8 months. The package allows me to go to two 45-minute classes per week.

 

I don't know where the rest of you are taking classes, but $99/mo for two 45-minute classes per week seems a bit overpriced to me, especially with that $199 upfront payment.

Count Duckula, I'd equally like to know where you're finding $100-$200/YEAR. I suspect you meant $100-$200/month.

I'm sorry, Newb. I'm still leaning toward "rip off" with the info you're giving about what they're charging you and the contract. Especially the contract. To me, that just screams "McDojo".

 

That'll be what's missing. Price is determined by a lot of things. Is there a reason it's so expensive?

 

That system sounds a lot like the place I train. Only difference is they don't have the poomsae black belt. I guess they just assume common sense will tell you there is a difference between a kid black belt and an adult black belt without explicitly differentiating the rank. Not to bag on poomsae belts; I've seen them before and think they're useful.

 

I'm not quite sure. What reasons would normally drive the price so high?

 

No I mean per year.

Because where I live, it is very rare for a teacher to get more than expenses paid. No teacher I know makes any significant money. It is something they do for love of the art.

All MA classes I know of are in the evening / weekend because the teachers have a normal day job. So membership fees depens only on insurance cost, cost of timeslots in a communal martial arts hall, and the overhead cost of running a non profit org.

When I was into modern jujutsu, the cost was IIRC 125$ per year + 25$ for insurance. Kendo was a bit more expensive 200 IIRC), Judo was somethin along thise lines as well, and currently I practice ninpo at a cost of 215 per year + insurance which is 35.

The US otoh seems to have a lot of dojos where the teacher is using it to make money. In that case, it is obvious that the cost will be much higher. But in my country, all MA clubs I know (Karate, TKD, Kendo, Judo, Jujutsu, ets) are registered non profit orgs, run at cost.

 

It also is worth asking how much the blackbelt test and certification fee,
TOTAL (including sales tax) is going to cost. It can be significant.
We are saving up for ours (multiplied by 3 students, it gets costly)

 

I think my Ju Jitsu 1st Dan cost about 100 quid. My 2nd Dan I was awarded without cost and I lost interest in gradings after that.

$100 is about right in my view (about 75 quid)

I have seen truly ridiculous prices between $500-$1000 in my time - appealing to the.....well I'm not sure WHAT demographic that is appealing to actually