Hi. Not sure if this has been posted here before. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU"]Fajin (Fajing) Exercises of The Pre-Heaven Power Method - YouTube[/ame] What are your opinions on this? Having very limited experience of internal martial arts can't decide whether it's genuine or not. Looks alot more real than alot of other fajing demonstrations i have seen. Thanks, Jamie
Further to my last my post here's the homepage for the school if anyone is interested. http://www.ctmaa.com/ Thanks, Jamie
Difficult to say with certainty i.e some of it 'looks' ok, but until you experience Pushing Hands with them, you cant tell anything. However a few basic points. 1 sometimes the 'attackers' seem a bit too keen/willing to go over 2 the same 'attackers' dont seem to blend/counter against the 'defender' 3 there is a lot of subtlety in good pushing hands (which I do not apply particularly well i.e. I rely on speed and countering too much), and it is not always visible what is going on i.e. it helps if you train with the folk a while to 'read' what they are doing - so its really difficult to tell from youtube land. If they come to scotland, I'd at least give them a visit out of curiosity. As for Fajing (my interpretation :- pulsed change of tempo and energy discharge), I cant 'see' it on the vid. Again, you have to experience it to be sure. From what I can see on their website, their Curriculum takes in diffferent aspects from Yang, Chen and what is called 'Wu Dang' - which suggests a smorgsbord TCC along with Bagua and Xing Yi - which seems to be quite prevalent amongst expatriot Chinese communities. I cross train myself, so I cant say that its a bad thing. They also include 9 Palace in their curriculum, which is not prevalent amongst all TCC - which for me is a positive pointer. Cloudz, Liokault and others may chime in with better comment.
Total total crap. I am disapointed we are even giving this rubBish the time of day. I mean, which part looked real? Jumping up in the air as a response to a short shoulder barge at arms reach!!! Really? You don't need to know tai chi to see this is rubbish. Bit angry now!
This is more or less my take, plus I'd give him some resistance and push him, experiencing how he reacts. He may or may not be Mr Chi Superman, but I need to feel what hes got with some resistance applied.
Just my 2 cents worth There seems to be way to much physical power being utilised in the movements. Do a search on youtube of Ma Yueh Liang, and watch a few of the videos with regards to push hands, pay attention to the effortlessness of his movements compared to the obvious power being utilised in the original post. Worlds apart.
Thanks for all the reponses. While my natural instinct would be to agree with Yohan and Liokault (being quite hard nosed when it comes to notions of chi) something just struck me about this demo. It reminded me of Bruce lee's 1 inch punch demo but force (not some mystical energy) being imparted by way of grasp not punch. Sorry if i've infuriated anyone From what i've read this is "static" exercise so the stooges aren't meant to be trying to resist/counter at all. There was a posting of a push hands demo using this "method". http://www.youtube.com/user/taipingvlg#p/a/u/0/egflLAo_LGg Anyway thanks again for the comments. Jamie
The youtube link didn't work for me, but I watched "Fajin testing exercises of the Pre-Heaven Power Method demonstrated by Master Wei-Chung Lin" on their website... The technique *might* be excellently executed, but the juniors are letting themselves fall. Or they're sh_t. Those little baby steps they take will NEVER get balance back. The only excuse I can think of is that they've all learnt NOT to take big steps when they're pushed with a wall behind them (try and plant your foot on a skirting board when you're expecting floor and it's agony, flopping pathetically against the wall is the safe option)
We should keep our friends close but our enemies closer. Pushing our opponent away make no sense IMO. Any BJJ guy will know that when you take your opponet down, you get on top of him ASAP. I got into a car accident once in Taipei. I got into a serious argument with the other guy. When I saw the other guy tried to get into his car, I stood between him and his car. Later on I found out that guy did have a gun in his glove compartment. If I did let him out of my reach, I won't be here to type on my keyboard.
I don't see anything out of the ordinary there. If you view what you are seeing as drills, what's happening is quite normal and nothing exceptional. The partners are playing a simple role and they are even standing square on which makes the result probably more than needs be. They are probably being a bit too stiff - either for effect or from inexperience. Neither is a big deal in the context. They are feeding a 'dumb' force into the instructor and he's absorbing and projecting back into them. They are maintaining their structure rather than attempting to change, neutralize, absorb etc themselves. Like I said it is just a drill. This schools clips have been discussed before, a few times on the IMA forum. The kind of absorb and project he's doing is a very basic skill and this is a basic "wall training" drill to practice that - nothing more. It's only when we expect more that we get dissapointed. They have clips of the instructor doing free pushing with his students and their reactions to his pushes and projections are less pronounced than in this drill. The teacher though has good control and manipulation of force, and that's what push hands is about. Context is everything. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86889 Ok, now watch this clips and check the information posted with it about the method: http://www.youtube.com/user/taipingvlg What you are seeing in the clip posted in the OP is (2) testing jin. You are seeing the drill for "testing jin". In this clip they show some of that testing, but mostly (3) "response hands" which is a common free push hands drill. he get's one guy particularly well when he goes flying of at an angle, but most of it is fairly standard for student/teacher exchanges.
Maybe in the dojo or in a comp - of course what else would you do if your goal is to get a submission.. In real life that friendly guy on the floor could have a knife in his pocket, then getting on top of "your opponent", just became the dumbest idea you ever had. We've had these discussions before, so I'm not going to go over stuff you have heard before in regards pushes/ projections. You are twice as lucky he didn't have it on him, then you just would have been irritating a guy with a gun.
Thanks for your post cloudz. I especially liked the clip with Steve Rowe and i think it's fair to say the guy in the originally ctmaa clips is using more force. Thanks, Jamie
In the origional post, the recivers were clearly willing to fly backwards! If you put your hands on a shoulder and push, if that shoulder suddenly pushes you several things can happen. None of those things involve you going up. How does a (really poorly applied) side ways force become upward movement?
Just to be clear i'm not wanting to argue for or against that's not why i posted this. Where does anyone in the video get pushed up when the instructor isn't clearly pushing them up or at least his arms move that way. I think there's also a difference between being willing to fall and falling over with no need to.
Well yea, I think they are willing participants sure. If you keep a stiff structure like they're doing and don't actively attempt corrections. You are going to go back like that or quite similar. i think the way it's set up, the whole drill mentality with the padded wall, just adds to that. I did see a few occasions (maybe 3-4) where they popped/bounced up. I think that's a case of the instructor getting underneath their force and projecting upward and forward instead of just forward. If they stay stiff like they do, it's not a strange thing to happen - them going up. Don't tell me.. You've forgotten what it's like to be stiff.. *snigger* I honestly don't see overt faking going on though, maybe some unconcious embellishment. Or what i would describe as "going with it".. It just seems to be the nature of some of these drills with fixed roles. It is co operation at work. Do these drills for a while and they are actually pretty knackering, and not a bad way to practice that initial contact reaction to force.
1.07 and 1.13 just to start. There is. In all cases here, there was no need to fall. At no point did the "magician" do enough to elicit the physical response shown. I have been doing pushing hands for 20+ years now. I have been thrown a long way with little force and I understand the method. I can fairly consistently move people the first few times that they push hands with me in such a way that they don’t even think I move. Again there’s a method to this. I used to compete in moving step and fixed step pushing hands and I only gave up when I won nationally for like 4 years in a row and got bored. Believe me, I understand pushing hands. And I understand physics. What this guy shows adheres to neither of the two which just leaves trickery.
Physics and the as yet unbreakable laws of the multiverse say you’re wrong. Physics says that you can't lift someone by pushing on an out stretched arm. To lift them you would need to push on an unbending arm from a very low angle, which we don’t see here. That and you can see them jump!
Once again, someone posts a video that shows training, and everyone believes he is trying to prove to be superman, King-Kong, invincible and then argues against it. Uahhhh....